normiss 891 #1 April 22, 2011 In public anyway... ZZZzzzzAAAPPPP! Really? Why would you take someone into custody just because they seem odd or irrational? Couldn't you just escort them off the property? We are living in a police state!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #2 April 22, 2011 did you read the article? Quote"He was kind of pacing around, grabbing his beard, grabbing his head and hair, and they were trying to get a hold of him. He was being disorderly,” said Sgt. Barb Jones, of the Orlando Police Department. looks to me like they were trying to escort him off the property. what would you have rather they done?-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 891 #3 April 22, 2011 "He was kind of pacing around, grabbing his beard, grabbing his head and hair" That right there is definitely cause for arrest if I've ever seen it. I better watch how I touch my goatee. Wouldn't want to get killed for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #4 April 22, 2011 right... at an amusement park. So they asked him to leave, and he wouldn't. At that point it becomes criminal trespass. They were trying to get a hold of him, he was being disorderly. he got tased bro. what would you rather they had done?-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 891 #5 April 22, 2011 Not at an amusement park. Did you read the article? It (and other local reports) do not mention that he was asked to leave, only that the police wanted to detain him simply based on his "irrational" behavior. Given the news reports that there was a rather large police presence, why did they puss out and tase him? Not like the guy was a derelict or homeless guy, he lived over an hour away from where he died. I won't apologize for valuing life more than a lot of police seem to. "Oh well, he deserved it - can I go on admin leave now until you clear me?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #6 April 22, 2011 "Universal security called Orlando police" This was on universal theme park property. universal citywalk: http://www.universalorlando.com/OverviewPages/Nightlife/citywalk_nightlife_overview.aspx not an amusement park. but private property owned by a company that makes its money on people being comfortable there and spending their money. What I see in this is a man who was likely asked to leave, and refused, universal's security folks couldn't get a hold of him to escort him off property, when the officers tried to restrain him he reacted violently and they tased him. I wouldn't expect any media would report what is in italics above because then it wouldn't make good news. what would you rather they had done? Their options were to injure him with 100% certainty through increased physical restraint (likely at minimum a dislocated shoulder) or tase him to incapacitate him that has a much smaller chance of permanent physical damage. Or continue to let him roam the private property he was on after being asked to leave. what would you rather they have done?-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 891 #7 April 22, 2011 To me, tasing people because you can't find a more humane way of interacting with them, much less the insistence of police to arrest people instead of simply dealing with the situation has simply gotten out of hand. Tasing should be looked at in the same mindset as using a deadly weapon and lethal force because it is. It just seems these days if a cop shows up, SOMEONE is going to jail. Cops no longer deal with anything, they simply perform a basic function and leave the courts to sort things out. I'm sure it helps their budget big time though. There were enough cops on hand to forcibly escort this man off the property. I've assisted in removing large, intoxicated, angry individuals from night clubs on numerous occasions. It ain't that damn hard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #8 April 22, 2011 Quote It just seems these days if a cop shows up, SOMEONE is going to jail. Cops no longer deal with anything, they simply perform a basic function and leave the courts to sort things out. I'm sure it helps their budget big time though. It's been that way for many years. They're a reactive force. They don't maintain order, they detain. They don't protect and serve, they show up and react. Quote There were enough cops on hand to forcibly escort this man off the property. And if he hadn't reacted violently to the 5 officers trying to detain him, that might have actually happened. But it did not.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #9 April 23, 2011 Quote right... at an amusement park. So they asked him to leave, and he wouldn't. At that point it becomes criminal trespass. They were trying to get a hold of him, he was being disorderly. he got tased bro. what would you rather they had done? how about recognize the possibility that the man had some mental illness issues,,,,, or that the man was having an emotional breakdown or a psychotic episode.... A person who is "not responding to police COMMANDS" is not always being intentionally beligerant.... I thought cops were taught certain physical techniques for SAFELY dealing with such episodes.... To simply whip out an "electro- SHOCK" device, cause "it's easier & safer" for the police involved seems to me to be a step away from.. "innocent until proven guilty"..... in this case the cops became the judge, the jury AND the executioner..... NOT cool.. imho... I mean just cause the poor guy was "from Winter Haven"........ there was no need to ZAP the life outta him......R. I. P. jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #10 April 23, 2011 Quote What I see in this is a man who was likely asked to leave, and refused, universal's security folks couldn't get a hold of him to escort him off property, when the officers tried to restrain him he reacted violently and they tased him. this is certainly possible, but given the heavy handedness with security by some amusement park operators (ie, Disney), it's also just as possible that they skipped the asking part and just sent in the hit squad. Cops continue to prove that they should not be trusted with "vague less lethal" force in the taser. It's replaced the baton (which bruises and looks bad) and good judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #11 April 23, 2011 QuoteTo me, tasing people because you can't find a more humane way of interacting with them, much less the insistence of police to arrest people instead of simply dealing with the situation has simply gotten out of hand. Arresting a person is one way of "dealing with the situation". Sometimes no amount of talking is going to accomplish anything, and there are many other considerations which may preclude discussing things for twenty minutes, even if it would get something done. When an arrest is justified and an officer chooses to make a custodial arrest, the suspect is legally required to comply with the officer. When a suspect resists of fails to comply with lawful instruction, use of force may be necessary. Do you dispute any of that? QuoteTasing should be looked at in the same mindset as using a deadly weapon and lethal force because it is. No, it isn't, any more than using a baton or a punch is deadly force. If you need help understanding use of force levels, ask. Statements like that just show ignorance. Using a firearm or an edged weapon us deadly force. Anything else depends on how it is used because it is not in and of itself inherently deadly force. Suspects have died from batons, pepper spray, closed-fist punches, hand cuffs, and TASERs. None of those things are automatically deadly force. QuoteIt just seems these days if a cop shows up, SOMEONE is going to jail. Cops no longer deal with anything, they simply perform a basic function and leave the courts to sort things out. I'm sure it helps their budget big time though. Well, "how it seems" to you is not how it is. Nationally, officers make an arrest in less than two percent of interactions with the public. Again, by researching your topic or asking someone who knows more, you can avoid making yourself look ridiculous. Also, officers "dealing with things" instead of making arrests has led to problems and changes in law. Too many officer used to "deal with it" on domestic violence calls. Too many officers used to "deal with it" when they came across drunk drivers. Etc, etc, etc. Policing is an activity where no matter what you do, you're going to piss off a lot of people. That's just life. QuoteThere were enough cops on hand to forcibly escort this man off the property. I've assisted in removing large, intoxicated, angry individuals from night clubs on numerous occasions. It ain't that damn hard. Not many if them thought fighting a bouncer to stay in the club was worth killing or dying for, right? If you've taken that many to the curb, then surely you've seen them suddenly go berserk and fight a lot harder if they see an officer outside, right? The plain facts are that the officers had a reason to take him into custody, he refused, and they used a level of force justified by law, courts, and their departmental policy. Unfortunately, the person died. But since he may still have died if they used batons, or hands, or pepperspray, or any other methof of control, I don't see why you're pissing and moaning. Would you be happier if another control choice led to his death? Would you be happier if they talked to him and let him go and he hurt himself or someone else?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #12 April 23, 2011 Quote how about recognize the possibility that the man had some mental illness issues,,,,, or that the man was having an emotional breakdown or a psychotic episode.... A person who is "not responding to police COMMANDS" is not always being intentionally beligerant.... I thought cops were taught certain physical techniques for SAFELY dealing with such episodes.... Officers are taught how to handle possible mental cases. Read this quote from the article: Quote Five off-duty Orlando police officers, who were working security at the park, tried to restrain Johnson and called for backup from an on-duty officer. They said when Johnson resisted violently one of them deployed his taser. Police cuffed Johnson, who is from Winter Haven, but while he was down he became unresponsive. Despite CPR efforts to revive him, Johnson died. Police said his behavior led them to believe he had some type of mental or substance abuse problem, and officers were looking to have him baker-acted. The officers were trying to take him into custody for transport to a mental health facility. He was NOT being arrested on criminal charges. For anyone who didn't bother reading the article, try doing so next time. For anyone not familiar with Florida and the baker act, [url" http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Florida+baker+act"]I suggest you google it, as I did.[/url] Quote To simply whip out an "electro- SHOCK" device, cause "it's easier & safer" for the police involved seems to me to be a step away from.. "innocent until proven guilty"..... in this case the cops became the judge, the jury AND the executioner..... NOT cool.. imho... I mean just cause the poor guy was "from Winter Haven"........ there was no need to ZAP the life outta him......R. I. P. If any of that had anything to do with the incident we're discussing, I might bother responding. However, as it bears no relation to the facts in this case, there's no point.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #13 April 23, 2011 There are a lot of crazies out there. That is why so many Floridians carry concealed weapons. Be aware and take care. Oh, and BTW don't f*** with the cops in the south.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #14 April 23, 2011 This explains a lot of irrational belief.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #15 April 23, 2011 QuoteThis explains a lot of irrational belief. Great article! Should be a required read for everyone on this forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #16 April 23, 2011 Quote This explains a lot of irrational belief. From tasers to religious cults!!! I will read it because it appears to be very interesting.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #17 April 23, 2011 Quote To me, tasing people because you can't find a more humane way of interacting with them, much less the insistence of police to arrest people instead of simply dealing with the situation has simply gotten out of hand. Tasing should be looked at in the same mindset as using a deadly weapon and lethal force because it is. It is a less lethal force. I remind you that people die from baton blows, etc. just as surely as they do from tasers. It just seems these days if a cop shows up, SOMEONE is going to jail. Cops no longer deal with anything, they simply perform a basic function and leave the courts to sort things out. I'm sure it helps their budget big time though. In the vast majority of cases cops soilve the issue at hand without arresting anyone. Their job is exactly to perform a basic function and allow the courts to sort things out. There were enough cops on hand to forcibly escort this man off the property. Sure, if he had cooperated in the least...which he chose not to. I've seen a 125 lb man resist 4 cops until he was tasered. One of the cops got a broken wrist for trying to subdue the critter. The guy wasn't even trained in any kind of self defense or martial arts, just gone nutso. I've assisted in removing large, intoxicated, angry individuals from night clubs on numerous occasions. It ain't that damn hard. Again, it ain't that damn hard if they cooperate. It's when they don't that problems arise and unpredictbility takes over. I think Universal and the cops did the right thing, though the outcome was regrettable. Somebody comes onto a resort property and starts pulling at his own hair and beard he needs to be removed for the safety of the guests.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #18 April 23, 2011 QuoteThis explains a lot of irrational belief. Clearly, our beliefs are based upon what we were taught of what we have learned. Marshall McLuhan was correct, "The Medium is the Message." Conclusion, we, those of us here at SC, have nothing left to discuss. The task now is to gather like minded individuals and take over.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
