Dutch Mass Murder At Mall

[kelpdiver 2]

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Funny, how it's big news in Holland, but a shooting like that in the states would not even make the honorable mention list.

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really - you don't think a shooting with 7 dead would make the news? If such a delusion makes you feel better (how?), fine. But it's a lie.

Typical responses:
No mention of "news" in quote.

Uh, come again? Typical response alright - you can't even read the sentence you quote.

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The event is not something that happens anywhere near regularly in the Netherlands. It is newsworthy in and of itself. Especially so here in the U.S. where we're all about dirty laundry.

And as mentioned, it has a population half that of California, 1/19th that of our country. So even if it happened with the same frequency as the US (which is likely false), it would still be a once a decade event.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Obviously due to the lax gun laws and gunshow loopholes in Holland.

I know you meant this sarcastically. However, this is seen as the main reason for this incident taking place. The shooter had a license for the gun used (and others in his possession), and also a known history of mental illness, including a 10 days hospitalization in a closed mental institution (meaning he would not have been able to leave out of his own will).

There are now many questions as to how this guy was able to keep his license and access to legal guns.

[kallend 2,150]

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Obviously due to the lax gun laws and gunshow loopholes in Holland.

I know you meant this sarcastically. However, this is seen as the main reason for this incident taking place. The shooter had a license for the gun used (and others in his possession), and also a known history of mental illness, including a 10 days hospitalization in a closed mental institution (meaning he would not have been able to leave out of his own will).

There are now many questions as to how this guy was able to keep his license and access to legal guns.

Are you saying that it's a bad idea for loonies to have guns? Oh the humanity!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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Obviously due to the lax gun laws and gunshow loopholes in Holland.

I know you meant this sarcastically. However, this is seen as the main reason for this incident taking place. The shooter had a license for the gun used (and others in his possession), and also a known history of mental illness, including a 10 days hospitalization in a closed mental institution (meaning he would not have been able to leave out of his own will).

There are now many questions as to how this guy was able to keep his license and access to legal guns.

Are you saying that it's a bad idea for loonies to have guns? Oh the humanity!

Except that all owners are already licensed by the state to own. Damn that state for requiring all loonies to own guns! After all, the state licensed him, and states are infallible, so the state wanted teh loonie to have the gun! Oh, the humanity!

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anyone who wants a weapons permit will have to be a member of a shooting club affiliated with the Koninklijke Nederlandse Schutters Associatie (KNSA).

To prevent criminals from learning to shoot in a club, aspiring members must also be licensed by the KNSA.

Weapons permits will also become easier to revoke. From next year, committing a crime will be grounds for losing one’s licence, as will ‘moving in criminal circles’.

The KNSA will conduct checks of affiliated clubs and issue licences to individual members.

Prospective members will have to submit a certificate of good behaviour, to prevent people with a criminal record from joining.

Those wishing to own a gun will be required to have a special safe. Collectors will have to submit a collection plan and will be assigned a mentor in the first year.

Sounds like everything folks want here in the states in order to prevent loonies from getting guns and committing horrible crimes. And yet, while Holland has all these things, we're here talking about a loonie committing a horrible crime with a gun. Hmmm....

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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Sounds like everything folks want here in the states in order to prevent loonies from getting guns and committing horrible crimes.

Really? Cause your quote says absolutely nothing about loonies. (Which is exactly why lax gun laws are being cited as a reason for this happening)

[Andy9o8 2]

Focus on the real problem here: If there weren't so many malls, there wouldn't be so many shootings. Kinda like trailer parks and tornados.

[DaVinci 0]

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However, this is seen as the main reason for this incident taking place.

No the main reason is because a guy wanted to kill others.

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and also a known history of mental illness, including a 10 days hospitalization in a closed mental institution (meaning he would not have been able to leave out of his own will).

There are now many questions as to how this guy was able to keep his license and access to legal guns.

And that is a good question.

[DaVinci 0]

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Are you saying that it's a bad idea for loonies to have guns? Oh the humanity!

The funny thing is that they have all the laws YOU WANT, and this still happened.

So much for proving your proposed solutions actually work.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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No the main reason is because a guy wanted to kill others.

And was known to want to kill himself, yet still had access to guns. The why he still had legal access to guns is still main question.

The question as to if this would have taken place without access to legal guns becomes unwinnable. Common sense would dictate that the harder it is for a suicidal loonie to have access to guns, the harder it is for this to take place in Holland.

[DaVinci 0]

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The why he still had legal access to guns is still main question.

Or why he wanted to kill people is the main question.

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Common sense would dictate that the harder it is for a suicidal loonie to have access to guns, the harder it is for this to take place in Holland.

It is illegal for felons to have guns, yet they still get them. Drugs are banned, yet the US has a drug problem. Mexico bans 'assault rifles' but they have a violence problem.

It is illogical to think banning something actually removes it.

Didn't work with prohibition.
Does not work with prostitution.
Does not work with felons and guns
Does not work with drugs
Banning 'assault weapons' did not work in Mexico.

It is a pipe dream from people unable to see reality.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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It is illogical to think banning something actually removes it.

I didn't say remove, I said harder to have access to.

[DaVinci 0]

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I didn't say remove, I said harder to have access to.

If trying to REMOVE them didn't work, "harder to have access" will work even less.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If trying to REMOVE them didn't work

That's the thing. They didn't try to remove them from a suicidal loonie. The main question is why they didn't.

[DaVinci 0]

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That's the thing. They didn't try to remove them from a suicidal loonie. The main question is why they didn't.

The main question is why did he do what he did... anything else is secondary. You want to focus on the act, not the reason.

You want to blame the item, not the individual.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The main question is why did he do what he did

We already know that, try and keep up.

So after that, most sane people would like to find out why he had legal access to guns.

[DaVinci 0]

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We already know that, try and keep up.

You know why he did it??? you wanna share with the class?

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So after that, most sane people would like to find out why he had legal access to guns.

You just keep wanting to blame the object.

Want me to wait on your answer to the above question... You know the reason the guy did this and what made him mentally able to discount others lives? You could save many lives with your "knowledge"

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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You know why he did it??? you wanna share with the class?

He had significant mental issues. Significant enough to have been hospitalized in a closed mental facilities for more than a week. He was known to be suicidal and was known to have violent tendencies.

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You just keep wanting to blame the object.

Want me to wait on your answer to the above question... You know the reason the guy did this and what made him mentally able to discount others lives? You could save many lives with your "knowledge"

I don't want to blame the object at all. I want to know why a person with known mental issues and known suicidal tendencies was allowed to own and operate the object.

I don't have the answer to mental illness. I do believe that allowing mental patient access to firearms is not the right thing to do.

[kelpdiver 2]

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He had significant mental issues. Significant enough to have been hospitalized in a closed mental facilities for more than a week.

that by itself doesn't constitute a finding. In the US you can be institutionalized for a period of time without any due process too. They can choose to jail first, think later. Hopefully those actions get confirmed by the doctor by the end of the review period.

[DaVinci 0]

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He had significant mental issues. Significant enough to have been hospitalized in a closed mental facilities for more than a week. He was known to be suicidal and was known to have violent tendencies.

Still waiting on WHY he did it. The REASONS he did it.

Why did this shooter do it? What mental issues did he have? Why was he the one to snap.

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I don't have the answer to mental illness.

Then you DON'T know why he did it, no matter the fact you claimed you did.

"We already know that, try and keep up."

Do you even know what he was diagnosed with?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

DaVinci, the issue was a mental patient retaining legal rights to guns and that the Dutch were examining that subject with regards to this shooting at a Dutch mall.

You have since construed that as me blaming the object and have requested I explain to you the mindset of a mental patient. He was prescribed medication for schizophrenia, psychosis and he was suffering from hallucinations. He stopped taking those medications roughly 7 months ago. He further took presciption sleeping pills and anti depressants.

He had been under the care of a pshychiatrist and had been hospitalized for drug overdoses and attempted suicide.

You may think some body in that mental state should be legally allowed to own guns. I don't.

[DaVinci 0]

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DaVinci, the issue was a mental patient retaining legal rights to guns and that the Dutch were examining that subject with regards to this shooting at a Dutch mall.

The issue is why in his great health care provided country did he not get the proper medical care to identify and treat his condition.

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You may think some body in that mental state should be legally allowed to own guns. I don't.

Show one example of where I have said that.... go ahead find ONE.

The point is you ignore the major issue (his mental problems) and instead focus on gun control.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The issue is why in his great health care provided country did he not get the proper medical care to identify and treat his condition.

Uhmm, they did. And provided free treatment and free medication. He stopped going for treatment and stopped taking the medication. As I have stated a couple of times before, we are passed that issue.

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Show one example of where I have said that.... go ahead find ONE.

This thread is a pretty clear indication you believe mental patients should still have rights to guns.

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The point is you ignore the major issue (his mental problems) and instead focus on gun control.

His mental issues were known, under free treatment, with free medication.

What do you think would be the proper solution at this point? (Keep in mind there is no constitutional right to bear arms in The Netherlands)

Or is the occasional mass murder just the price to pay?

[DaVinci 0]

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Uhmm, they did. And provided free treatment and free medication. He stopped going for treatment and stopped taking the medication. As I have stated a couple of times before, we are passed that issue.

No, YOU are passed that issue since you cannot defend on it and would rather focus on the gun than the real issues.


I said fine ONE example of where I said mental patients should have guns... You replied with:

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This thread is a pretty clear indication you believe mental patients should still have rights to guns.

So you are unable to back up your claims and instead try to distract.... Back up your words or admit you are unable and are making that claim up.

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What do you think would be the proper solution at this point? (Keep in mind there is no constitutional right to bear arms in The Netherlands)

I do not think the right to self defense should be limited by a line on a map.

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Or is the occasional mass murder just the price to pay?

There will be occasional mass murders with or without firearms.

McVeigh killed 168 with a Ryder truck, fuel and fertilizer.

Strict gun laws did not help 183 people in Mexico.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/27/c_13847907.htm

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I said fine ONE example of where I said mental patients should have guns...

So, if mental patients should not have guns, isn't the issue why this mental patient was allowed to legally keep his guns?

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I do not think the right to self defense should be limited by a line on a map.

That doesn't answer the question.

Known mental patient with psychosis, schizophrenia, suicidal with at east one attempt. Should he be allowed to keep his guns?

[Kennedy 0]

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Known mental patient with psychosis, schizophrenia, suicidal with at east one attempt. Should he be allowed to keep his guns?

Before answering, I have to ask you, is every shrink infallible?

Obviously not. We aren't dealing with black and white. Humans are a messy topic no matter how you look at it.

My view is that potential "nutters" and "loonies" should be evaluated, confined and involuntarily committed for evaluation if necessary. After that, a judge should rule on whether or not a person should lose their right. (one point: involuntary committment is already a disqualifier, by law, from purchase of firearms; the problem is reporting is not up to par)

That way, there is no need for secret No Buy lists run by some faceless and unaccountable bureaucrat.

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