kelpdiver 2 #151 April 15, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhy would a solider put himself at risk in a confrontation with his CO over a waste issue? Because it would be the right thing to do. No, refusing to shoot on citizens is an example of the right thing to do. Refusing to shoot off a bunch of ammo: 1) could get you sanctioned 2) could put you on the outs with your squad 3) could get you assigned to shit duties 4) could result in your outfit getting less munitions (the fear behind the order in the first place) 5) could hurt your career. solving waste issues like this need to be solved from the top down, not the bottom up. The military is not a democracy and its not the place for grass roots movements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #152 April 15, 2011 QuoteRefusing to shoot off a bunch of ammo: 1) could get you sanctioned 2) could put you on the outs with your squad 3) could get you assigned to shit duties 4) could result in your outfit getting less munitions (the fear behind the order in the first place) 5) could hurt your career. Like I said. Self preservation in stead of the greater good. Everybody wants cuts, nobody wants cuts that affect them. (On point (4), if you have to waste munition to keep the same level, could you not do with a cut? Hence, wouldn't you be better off not to waste the ammo, and get less next year, since you already have too much of it anyways?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #153 April 15, 2011 QuoteQuoteRefusing to shoot off a bunch of ammo: 1) could get you sanctioned 2) could put you on the outs with your squad 3) could get you assigned to shit duties 4) could result in your outfit getting less munitions (the fear behind the order in the first place) 5) could hurt your career. Like I said. Self preservation in stead of the greater good. Everybody wants cuts, nobody wants cuts that affect them. (On point (4), if you have to waste munition to keep the same level, could you not do with a cut? Hence, wouldn't you be better off not to waste the ammo, and get less next year, since you already have too much of it anyways?) Repeating - it's not the front line soldier's job to cut, or to tell his superior officers how to run things. His or her job is to fight, and to work in the best interests of the platoon. #2 and #4 can hurt the group. On point 4, why do you jump with TWO parachutes and an AAD? How often do you use that reserve or that AAD? Isn't this proof you have too much? A question to the real soldiers here (rather than the keyboard jockeys) - have you ever left a battle situation and said, "I wish I ran out of ammo?" "Or carried less?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #154 April 15, 2011 QuoteSo, expending ammo for the sake of spending ammo, without clearly defined training objectives would certainly be an unlawful order QuoteI would not call it 'unlawful'... Stupid sure. But the point is you admit it happens. Yes, it happens. It doesn't make it right. Let me say, I am most certainly not trying to speak authoratatively on your particular scenario either. Rather I'm just saying generally that expending ammo for the sake of expending ammo is waste, fraud and abuse. That said, I'm gonna guess there was more to the scenario than just that. You've already addressed training value obtained during this "spendex". I don't know the circumstances. I wasn't there. You were. I'm not trying to speculate on your specific circumstances and I'm certainly not saying you followed an unlawful order by any stretch of the imagination. Just to be clear. QuoteThough the ammo allocation process is certainly not what you explain QuoteIt was a very basic description. It served to make the point. OK, fine. No big deal. QuoteI then counselled leaders to find ways to extract training value out of the ammo allocation and was able to find creative training value and still expend the ammo at the same time. QuoteAnd if you were an E5 and the 1SG told you and you alone to go blast 10 AT4's... What would you have done? Told him no? Absolutely not. I would've found the training value personally and for my Soldiers and done what I was told. Not arguing your point here at all. Again, I'm not saying this was an unlawful order because I don't know the circumstances. I'm guessing though that the 1SG had more in mind than just "go blast AT4s", but I'm speculating. Maybe that is all he had in mind. Probably not though. And yes, it happens. I know that. You know that. It's a result of poor leadership at many levels when it happens though.Blues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #155 April 15, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy would a solider put himself at risk in a confrontation with his CO over a waste issue? Because it would be the right thing to do. No, refusing to shoot on citizens is an example of the right thing to do. Refusing to shoot off a bunch of ammo: 1) could get you sanctioned 2) could put you on the outs with your squad 3) could get you assigned to shit duties 4) could result in your outfit getting less munitions (the fear behind the order in the first place) 5) could hurt your career. solving waste issues like this need to be solved from the top down, not the bottom up. The military is not a democracy and its not the place for grass roots movements. Make no mistake. Confronting a superior officer or NCO over a waste, fraud, or abuse issue most definitely IS the right thing to do. The problem is these issues are rarely clear-cut enough (such as the shooting civilians example you use) for people to be comfortable confronting because, as you state, there is significant risk of retribution. Also, in a lot of cases somebody may construe as waste, fraud, and/or abuse, there are circumstances or other parameters that they may not understand that makes it NOT waste, fraud, or abuse. So this brings forth a multitude of potential ethical dilemmas. But, confronting clear waste, fraud and abuse is most definitely the right thing to do. It's just not easy and it's easy to be wrong. That's why it is so often ignored or overlooked.Blues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #156 April 18, 2011 QuoteSounds like thereis enough confusion about whether the order is lawful or not. And you base that on????? Fact is others who were in the service disagree with you. QuoteEnough for somebody so concerned about cutting waste to take a stand on the issue. There is a time and a place to fight any battle. QuoteOn point (4), if you have to waste munition to keep the same level, could you not do with a cut? Hence, wouldn't you be better off not to waste the ammo, and get less next year, since you already have too much of it anyways? You think an E-5 is the one that should be making that call? Once again you are talking about a subject you know nothing about. Like the whuffo trying to tell a skydiver how to hook turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #157 April 18, 2011 QuoteA question to the real soldiers here (rather than the keyboard jockeys) - have you ever left a battle situation and said, "I wish I ran out of ammo?" "Or carried less?" We just went from training to battle situations. Apples and oranges are not thesame. QuoteOn point 4, why do you jump with TWO parachutes and an AAD? How often do you use that reserve or that AAD? Isn't this proof you have too much? If people jumped with 2 AADs and 2 reserves for fear of losing one in their next parachute allotment, you might have something of a point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #158 April 18, 2011 QuoteQuoteA question to the real soldiers here (rather than the keyboard jockeys) - have you ever left a battle situation and said, "I wish I ran out of ammo?" "Or carried less?" We just went from training to battle situations. Apples and oranges are not thesame. unless you're going to claim combat experience, this question was clearly not intended for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #159 April 18, 2011 Quoteunless you're going to claim combat experience, this question was clearly not intended for you. Pretty clear it is a statement regarding the question, not an answer to the question. Question is also stupid enough that even somebody without combat experience can answer it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #160 April 18, 2011 Quote Question is also stupid enough that even somebody without combat experience can answer it. I can see answers for both sides of the question, hence the question to those who actually have a clue on the subject, not a keyboard Rambo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #161 April 18, 2011 You really think somebody left a battle situation and wished they had run out of ammo? How do you see that side of the question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #162 April 18, 2011 QuoteYou really think somebody left a battle situation and wished they had run out of ammo? How do you see that side of the question? you might want to reread the question. Or see an optometrist. There were two questions. "or carried less" is really the key question being asked here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #163 April 19, 2011 Ahh, you thought commingling a stupid question with a serious question would get you valuable answers.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #164 April 19, 2011 QuoteAhh, you thought commingling a stupid question with a serious question would get you valuable answers.... not from you. But a couple others here have actually been able to add useful information to the thread. You've unfortunately pissed all over it, and they seem to be gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
