The small blood vessels around the lungs burst and fill the lungs with fluid and blood."

[brenthutch 444]

You call this environmentalism?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wind-turbines-kill-bats
The full impact of these bat-killing pressure zones extends far beyond the wind farm, however. Such migrating bats travel from Canada as far as Mexico, eating thousands of insects en route, including crop pests such as moths and beetles. "They are one of the only things that fly around at night and eat bugs," Baerwald notes. "Bats killed in Canada could have a detrimental impact in America or Mexico. It's not local. It's an ecosystem-wide issue."

[wmw999 2,589]

What are you for? As far as I can tell, you're pretty much against everything. More birds die from flying into windows than from going through wind farms, last I read.

In the late 1700's when people were experimenting with electricity, there was a huge uproar about it. It was going to enter our homes whether we wanted it or not. It kills people, and houses were going to burn down.

All those things happened, and very few of us have gotten rid of electricity.

The idea isn't to willy-nilly go into the future paying no attention to possible problems. But it's also not to stay exactly where we are, because we can't. We will end up where fossil fuels are too expensive for the way we use them now. We will end up with huge smog problems again (ask people about living around Pittsburgh in the 30's-50's around the steel mills).

So instead of just calling everything stupid, help to figure out if something might work, or figure out how to make what's there but deteriorating better.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DougH 270]

Doesn't matter... all the bats in New England are dying from this white nose syndrome any way. There won't be many that can even fly out of the caves no less ones that are healthy enough to get killed by wind farms.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 3,120]

Yep. Trees kill bats in much greater numbers. Can we look forward to you mocking them next?

[DougH 270]

Quote

Yep. Trees kill bats in much greater numbers. Can we look forward to you mocking them next?

That is interesting, I never heard that before, but I don't regularly study bats. Are they missing to sonar signature and crashing into them.

I don't see this as a reason to kill wind turbines but it would be a problem that needs to be looked into more detail if a windfarm was on a migration path and was taking out a large precentage of migrating bats.

That could be more of a problem that local tree kills.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ryoder 1,590]

Odd they never give the term for what they are describing: Pulmonary Barotrauma
Same thing happens to SCUBA divers who hold their breath while ascending.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 3,120]

>Are they missing to sonar signature and crashing into them.

That's one reason. Many trees have an ambiguous sonar return since they're covered with leaves, small branches etc. A bigger reason is simply that they are obstacles, and there are a lot of them. Even bats screw up.

>I don't see this as a reason to kill wind turbines but it would be a problem
>that needs to be looked into more detail if a windfarm was on a migration
>path and was taking out a large precentage of migrating bats.

Agreed, although the simpler solutions (remove lights nearby and on the turbines themselves) won't be popular.

[brenthutch 444]

I am not calling wind farms stupid I am calling those who support them as some sort of environmental nirvana, stupid.

[brenthutch 444]

I can tell you that I am NOT for plastic bag bans, (which when implemented in Ireland resulted in a 10% increase in overall plastic bag use)

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/263178/bag-plastic-ban-nat-brown
I am just a lonely voice of restraint in a world going gaga for green.

[wmw999 2,589]

I don't hear a lot of people saying they are an environmental nirvana. Those who think wind is the only answer are just as silly as people who think a hammer is only tool.

After all, you also need a big screwdriver, channel lock pliers, and duct tape

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,120]

>I am not calling wind farms stupid I am calling those who support
>them as some sort of environmental nirvana, stupid.

Ah, I see. But since I have never heard anyone refer to them as "environmental nirvana" your mocking may lack a target.

[brenthutch 444]

If the shoe does not fit, why do you take umbrage?

I am merely pointing out, not only the futility of things like wind power, low flow toilets, plastic bag bans, corn ethanol, cap and trade, etc. but the environmental harm they create in the name of the environment! In my world you don’t get an A for effort or bonus points for meaning well.
If you don’t want to be offended then, take no offence.

[wmw999 2,589]

The only futile thing about them is thinking they're a single answer to a complicated question. By saying they're futile, you're saying they should be trashed entirely.

How many complicated questions have only one answer? We don't even have just one way to produce electricity in the US now.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,589]

And, again -- which of our current systems is perfect? Which one has no downside?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[brenthutch 444]

I am saying that they are worse than futile, they are harmful. If these measures were benign than I would just smile in amusement and move on but they are not. They hurt the very environment they purport to help.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

I am saying that they are worse than futile, they are harmful. If these measures were benign than I would just smile in amusement and move on but they are not. They hurt the very environment they purport to help.

Given the number of HUMAN deaths worldwide associated with coal mining and coal use each year, I guess those who think coal is an appropriate energy source are totally batty.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,589]

They hurt less of the environment than what we're doing now.

They hurt some things that aren't being hurt now, and they don't hurt some things that are being hurt now.

Do you think that coal-powered plants are without any harmful effects?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,120]

>If the shoe does not fit, why do you take umbrage?

?? I'm not. You can mock any group you like here - even if they don't exist.

>I am merely pointing out, not only the futility of things like wind power

Hmm. I guess if you consider cheap and clean power to be futile that would make sense.

[brenthutch 444]

I love the wind turbines, a lot of my buddies BASE jump them. We have more wind turbins here in PA than anywhere east of the mississippi. They are great to jump off of because many of them are not running because the energy they produce is too expencive, and now that gov subsidies have dried up they sit idle. If you dont like that fact, dont hate me hate math.

[billvon 3,120]

>They are great to jump off of because many of them are not running
>because the energy they produce is too expencive . . .

Right. Perhaps they can no longer afford fuel for them.

But if your claim that wind subsidies are ending is true, and wind power is still growing at about 50% a year - then at least you'll have more and more places to jump, and the government won't be paying for any of them.

[wmw999 2,589]

I notice you're not answering questions, just making statements. Sounds like you're not really interested in a debate, and you already know what you think you need to know.

Fortunately, there are no downsides whatsoever to what we're doing now, the US is absolutely perfect except for all those fucking liberals who want to change things.

Right?????

That dog don't hunt.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[brenthutch 444]

Coal is clearly not without its downside. Yes coal kills but I never said it didn’t. And the deaths from coal pale in comparison the hundreds of thousands that have starved because of corn ethanol or the millions that have died from malaria because of the ban on DDT.

[brenthutch 444]

Quote

I notice you're not answering questions, just making statements. Sounds like you're not really interested in a debate, and you already know what you think you need to know.

Fortunately, there are no downsides whatsoever to what we're doing now, the US is absolutely perfect except for all those fucking liberals who want to change things.

Right?????

That dog don't hunt.

Wendy P.

Change is great, but I am for change that makes things better not worse. If you want a participation trophy, Talk to Bill.
Yes I am asking questions like”
“Why are we laying off teachers while we bomb Libya and subsidize wind farms that don’t produce power!??!”

[billvon 3,120]

>And the deaths from coal pale in comparison the hundreds of thousands
>that have starved because of corn ethanol , , ,

I call bullshit on that number. Take a look around; we have no shortage of corn syrup based on the size of people in any country that uses ethanol.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I guess those who think coal is an appropriate energy source are totally batty.

I love the way you worked "bats" back into the conversation. It's a sign of effective writing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239