d123 4 #1 March 29, 2011 Mother nature give humanity, give us this thing, this concept called anger that finds ways to express itself. I know that everything has a good and a bad side. We all know the bad side of anger. But what's the good side that anger directly or indirectly brings? Or, to see it in a different perspective let's imagine a tribe of people that don't know anger and that live in equilibrium. With the introduction of this concept anger after a while when equilibrium is found how is the tribe changed compared with how it was before? What mentality they have now?Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #2 March 29, 2011 >But what's the good side that anger directly or indirectly brings? A society that kills those who steal from it will tend to do better than a society that allows theft without repercussions. Anger is a behavioral tool that equips primitive people to react to things like theft, or loss of a breeding partner or child. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #3 March 29, 2011 Anger is what helps fuel personal survival and survival of the tribe. It allow us to defend against or kill whatever threatens us which is completely different than killing for food. It triggers hormones in our bodies that make that easier. When a lion kills a gazelle, she feels no remorse nor anger. She is not threatened, she's simply making dinner. When a mother bear is protecting her cubs, there's absolutely anger involved. The threat doesn't need to be physical. The threat can be one of status either real or imagined. It's clearly a survival mechanism.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #4 March 29, 2011 It really depends on how loosely or tightly you define "anger" as emotions are really a rat's nest and not as severable as our language used to describe them would suggest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 4 #5 March 30, 2011 Can we also say that a certain detachment from the urges is happening? Due to the fact that angers puts the individuals in recuring bad sitations faster than the other "gifts" (that nature gives) at equilibrium, in each individual a dissociation between the anger and the individual is created. The idividual is no longer the anger but the person who is aware that has a choice to listen to anger or not. Does it holds any water? Probably this detachment happens sooner than with other urges nature gives.Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #6 March 30, 2011 QuoteDue to the fact that angers puts the individuals in recuring bad sitations faster than the other "gifts... How certain are you that this is fact ? You would need to set clearer parameters for "bad situations" in this context. A person, motivated by anger, who is defending themselves, their family or their property from harm or theft, is arguably not in a bad situation, as opposed to passively surrendering to the threat. The level of 'detachment' from anger varies from person to person. As an example, it has often been said that courage is not the absence of fear, but the ability to overcome fear. That same belief is countered by those who say that if you have never reacted on fear then you have probably underestimated the danger of the situation. The same is true of anger. There are absolutely survival situations that exist where anger cannot, and should not, be detached. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #7 March 30, 2011 Anger is a spontaneous emotion. It cannot be controlled only expressed. If it is not expressed it can and most often leads to depression. The Bible instructs us not to sin in our anger but express it before the sun goes down. Civilized society demands that we express anger in a socially acceptable manner. My personal experience and my experience with clients indicates that rational thought does not always yield expression in a socially acceptable manner.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #8 March 30, 2011 QuoteAnger is a spontaneous emotion. It cannot be controlled only expressed. If it is not expressed it can and most often leads to depression. "Anger is not an involuntary emotional response to a specific situation. Anger arises from a philosophy--a way of viewing the world. At its core, anger represents an outlook of grandiosity, self-righteousness, commanding, and condemning." Perhaps it is better to externalize rather than internalize anger, but even better to learn to change irrational beliefs that lead to anger in the first place. Expressing anger does not rid oneself of anger, any more than expressing love rids oneself of love. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #9 March 30, 2011 Who are you quoting there?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #10 March 30, 2011 QuoteWho are you quoting there? Oh, sorry.... It's from Drs. Michael Edelstein and David Steele, in their book "Three Minute Therapy." Which is a sort of summarization of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), developed by Albert Ellis (which I am a big fan of, since it has helped me a lot). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #11 March 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnger is a spontaneous emotion. It cannot be controlled only expressed. If it is not expressed it can and most often leads to depression. "Anger is not an involuntary emotional response to a specific situation. Anger arises from a philosophy--a way of viewing the world. At its core, anger represents an outlook of grandiosity, self-righteousness, commanding, and condemning." Perhaps it is better to externalize rather than internalize anger, but even better to learn to change irrational beliefs that lead to anger in the first place. Expressing anger does not rid oneself of anger, any more than expressing love rids oneself of love. Are you making the point that without core beliefs you never have to deal with anger? How do you know when you have an irrational belief?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #12 March 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteWho are you quoting there? Oh, sorry.... It's from Drs. Michael Edelstein and David Steele, in their book "Three Minute Therapy." Which is a sort of summarization of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), developed by Albert Ellis (which I am a big fan of, since it has helped me a lot). I wonder if he'd get angry if I walked up to him on the street and slapped him? I'm almost certain I'd see a spontaneous response of some sort and I'm pretty sure it would be anger.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #13 March 30, 2011 QuoteAre you making the point that without core beliefs you never have to deal with anger? No. QuoteHow do you know when you have an irrational belief? Look for evidence to support the belief, and then decide how rational it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #14 March 30, 2011 QuoteI wonder if he'd get angry if I walked up to him on the street and slapped him? I'm almost certain I'd see a spontaneous response of some sort and I'm pretty sure it would be anger. I think surprise would be the spontaneous response. Anger might follow, but I do think it is technically a choice. Emotions are probably more difficult to control in surprising, fast-paced situations. The idea is somewhat of an over-simplification, and "anger" is somewhat of a broad term. I was only responding to the idea that it should always be expressed and that it cannot be controlled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #15 March 30, 2011 >I think surprise would be the spontaneous response. Anger might follow . . . Anger would follow, and be a result of the physiological response to an attack. That response prepares us to fight (expressed as anger) or run (expressed as fear.) Most people experience both more or less instantly. We can, of course, use our rational minds to decide which one (if either) to choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #16 March 30, 2011 Quote Anger would follow . . . It's a hypothetical scenario, with many possible variables, so I don't think this is a given. (Maybe the guy likes getting slapped, and finds quade attractive. Anger might not be his physiological response. ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #17 March 30, 2011 Quote Quote Anger would follow . . . It's a hypothetical scenario, with many possible variables, so I don't think this is a given. (Maybe the guy likes getting slapped, and finds quade attractive. Anger might not be his physiological response. ) Then I would have to question the man's vision, if indeed he had any whatsoever. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 4 #18 March 30, 2011 > "Anger is not an involuntary emotional response to a specific situation. Anger arises from a philosophy--a way of viewing the world. At its core, anger represents an outlook of grandiosity, self-righteousness, commanding, and condemning." Totally agree with you. You've express in a clear way some of my ideas. Maybe with the detachment from anger I was meaning changing your believes on how the world is working. Is like we create a map of how the world is working with our believes but the map is just a map and not the real deal. Maybe a lot of anger comes from badly created maps and people way too attach to their maps. Interresting ideas here. For sure the only way to avoid anger is for all of us to have sync maps with reality.Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #19 March 30, 2011 Quote QuoteHow do you know when you have an irrational belief? Look for evidence to support the belief, and then decide how rational it is. There's the rub. To the individual, all beliefs and thoughts are rational. As billvon pointed out, anger comes from surprise. From the counseling/therapeutic aspect, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to determine which comes first, anger or fear. They are explored together for the client's benefit.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 4 #20 March 30, 2011 > I wonder if he'd get angry if I walked up to him on the street and slapped him? I'm almost certain I'd see a spontaneous response of some sort and I'm pretty sure it would be anger. I kinda agree with what he said. He'll probably be surprised and angry because you've *believed* that hiting is something good. And he'll be right because if everybody hit when they wanted where would we go? Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #21 March 31, 2011 QuoteTo the individual, all beliefs and thoughts are rational. I have been able to identify many of my own irrational beliefs/thoughts. It sometimes takes a lot of effort to dispute these beliefs, but it is possible. And it has helped me a lot in reducing anxiety (which can sometimes be a form of internalized anger). Anyhow, I'm probably not the best at explaining it. If you're interested, look up REBT. (Though I'm guessing it's quite a bit different than the kind of counselling you're involved with. And different things work for different people.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #22 March 31, 2011 Quote Quote To the individual, all beliefs and thoughts are rational. I have been able to identify many of my own irrational beliefs/thoughts. It sometimes takes a lot of effort to dispute these beliefs, but it is possible. And it has helped me a lot in reducing anxiety (which can sometimes be a form of internalized anger). Anyhow, I'm probably not the best at explaining it. If you're interested, look up REBT. (Though I'm guessing it's quite a bit different than the kind of counselling you're involved with. And different things work for different people.) I was introduced to RE(B)T at the last program where I was a section manager. Are you a clinician? Self diagnosis and therapy is not efficient. It is always recommended that we find a non-judgmental third party professional resource for personal growth. I haven't always been efficient either.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 4 #23 March 31, 2011 So, can we conclude that anger is a sign that: - either in yourself or in the people you interact on the dayly basis there's a missmatch in believes. Ex: An inteligent men living between idiots. - a poor understanding of the crude reality of life. Ex: An idiot that gets angry when for the 7th time the inflated water of the river gets his house destroyed, instead of moving his house upper. Does that makes any sense?Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #24 March 31, 2011 QuoteAre you a clinician? No. Just a strong interest in REBT because it has been very helpful to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #25 March 31, 2011 Quote Does that makes any sense? Honestly? No. But I'll try reading it again when this stupid allergy medicine wears off, and maybe I'll get back to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
