Hiring Based on Race is Wrong...

[dreamdancer 0]

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You're going to have to expand more on that if you want to be considered an actual participant in the discussion.

Wendy P.

i'm just tagging along...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Kennedy 0]

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You're going to have to expand more on that if you want to be considered an actual participant in the discussion.

i'm just tagging along...

Then get back under your bridge.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[dreamdancer 0]

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You're going to have to expand more on that if you want to be considered an actual participant in the discussion.

i'm just tagging along...

Then get back under your bridge.

and join you...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[wmw999 2,558]

Back to the topic (because I'm sick of spending time on people who don't add content).

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How is making a decision based on race not racist?

If you're hiring a body double for Sidney Poitier, is that racist? Taking race into consideration as one qualifying element for a job is not inherently racist, but the presumption under those circumstances is one of guilt.

Is the reason to maintain the status quo for the majority/people in power, or are there other reasons? Maintaining the status quo for the majority/people in power, when they got that way through unfair means (and, as a people, whites did in America) isn't the best reason.

Everyone wants their kids to have benefits that they worked for. But those benefits should come from things that they worked for personally and individually, and not institutionalized ones.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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But those benefits should come from things that they worked for personally and individually, and not institutionalized ones..

yeah, like subsidizing purchases of items. perhaps solar panels

<> it's kinda quiet here, I think I stepped in the wrong room

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ShotterMG 0]

Your view point is understandable. Affirmative action is a tough topic and very hard to explain as something other than reverse racism. But I support it. The following is my rationale.
If you mug somebody, take all of their possessions and beat them up, is it enough to say " ok, i wont do that again", or should you give the person their stuff back? Is it fair to say, ok, you're now naked and own nothing, but we are now equal and have the same opportunities? No..
Through slavery and Jim Crow laws which lasted nearly 200 years, blacks were forced into situations of poverty and discrimination. We systematically took away their rights and opportunities. We abused them and put them at immense economic disadvantage and can now see the resulting disparities. People who beielve in affirmative action do not think its ok to simply say " we will stop abusing you now, we are equal" and wait 200 years for blacks to catch up. Basically, we are a mile ahead, and its not fair to restart the race with blacks back at the start line. Where groups do not willingly diversify to ensure equal treatment of all hires, affirmative action is justified and necessary.

[wmw999 2,558]

Should the government have any say in rewarding behavior that furthers ends it sees as positive?

Like tax breaks for companies? Like anti-discrimination legislation? Like anti-monopoly legislation?

I'm not sure I see the parallel here to racism and AA. Can you explain it? Or do you, in fact, wish for no such control whatsoever. If so, how do you prevent the tyranny of the majority, or are you OK with that?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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Your view point is understandable. Affirmative action is a tough topic and very hard to explain as something other than reverse racism. But I support it. The following is my rationale.
If you mug somebody, take all of their possessions and beat them up, is it enough to say " ok, i wont do that again", or should you give the person their stuff back? Is it fair to say, ok, you're now naked and own nothing, but we are now equal and have the same opportunities? No..
Through slavery and Jim Crow laws which lasted nearly 200 years, blacks were forced into situations of poverty and discrimination. We systematically took away their rights and opportunities. We abused them and put them at immense economic disadvantage and can now see the resulting disparities. People who beielve in affirmative action do not think its ok to simply say " we will stop abusing you now, we are equal" and wait 200 years for blacks to catch up. Basically, we are a mile ahead, and its not fair to restart the race with blacks back at the start line. Where groups do not willingly diversify to ensure equal treatment of all hires, affirmative action is justified and necessary.

I agree the "mugger" owes the "victim" retribution. But does that really apply to the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. of theirs?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I think you need to study up on genetics. Selective breeding can have huge influence in as little as one generation. Look into why Americans directly descended from African slaves have a much higher incidence of hypertension than other groups. You may be surprised at what you. Find.

You may want to look into that yourself. It was proved wrong when they studied (and found low) hypertension in African countries. Probably has more to do with diet and stress in low income areas ...

You have no idea what you are talking about. The theory i am referring to is backed up by those findings.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I think you need to study up on genetics. Selective breeding can have huge influence in as little as one generation. Look into why Americans directly descended from African slaves have a much higher incidence of hypertension than other groups. You may be surprised at what you. Find.

Perhaps you don't really understand genetics... How many generations of inbreeding did Cleopatra come from??? The closer you are genetically to another person, the higher the likelihood that he/she will posses the same recessive genes. This means that there is a higher chance of your offspring displaying these recessive traits. These traits can include diseases but also things like blue eyes and blond hair and a resistance to certain diseases... There is a reason why (some) dog and cat breeders like to create "pure breeds"... Yes, they may be more susceptible to some ailments, but also they are more likely to display the characterictics they like in that particular breed.


Note: I still find the idea of inbreeding icky!!! Sleeping with my brother??? No thanks


ETA - In case anyone was going to criticise, just wanted to point out that I picked "blue eyes" and "blond hair" purely because they are recessive traits/genes.

The high incidence of hypertension in African-Americans descended from slaves is not related to inbreeding.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[wmw999 2,558]

From what I've read, it's related to a physical inability to adapt to the western diet. Which would tend to imply that it's not due to a short-duration genetic shift, but instead an inability to manage one.

Or am I missing something in what you're trying to say?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nataly 38]

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Your view point is understandable. Affirmative action is a tough topic and very hard to explain as something other than reverse racism. But I support it. The following is my rationale.
If you mug somebody, take all of their possessions and beat them up, is it enough to say " ok, i wont do that again", or should you give the person their stuff back? Is it fair to say, ok, you're now naked and own nothing, but we are now equal and have the same opportunities? No..
Through slavery and Jim Crow laws which lasted nearly 200 years, blacks were forced into situations of poverty and discrimination. We systematically took away their rights and opportunities. We abused them and put them at immense economic disadvantage and can now see the resulting disparities. People who beielve in affirmative action do not think its ok to simply say " we will stop abusing you now, we are equal" and wait 200 years for blacks to catch up. Basically, we are a mile ahead, and its not fair to restart the race with blacks back at the start line. Where groups do not willingly diversify to ensure equal treatment of all hires, affirmative action is justified and necessary.

I agree the "mugger" owes the "victim" retribution. But does that really apply to the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. of theirs?

Well, I can't speak for ShotterMG, but when you take away or deny rights to people, it can take several generations to correct the problems. I don't think it's about retribution as much as it's a way to neutralise a situation.

I think positive discrimination is just as distasteful as negative discrimination, but there are circumstances that warrant it. It may be quite unpleasant in the short term, but if it means greater strides toward equality, it seems preferable to slow and dragged-out methods that will never achieve equality... Sometimes the medicine is just as bad as the ailment - but if it's the best cure, it's the best cure...

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[wmw999 2,558]

If the muggers children benefit from the ill-gotten gains, and the muggee's children have suffered, then yes, maybe they do owe something to the muggee.

Otherwise, I think Bernie Madoff's wife would still be sitting pretty.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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From what I've read, it's related to a physical inability to adapt to the western diet. Which would tend to imply that it's not due to a short-duration genetic shift, but instead an inability to manage one.

Or am I missing something in what you're trying to say?

Wendy P.

As told to me by a Professor with PhD's in both anthropology and biology, the reason is based on the way the slaves were brought to the new world.
The trip was Hell. It was not unusual for 50% or more of the slaves to die at sea from any number of causes. The one thing virtually every slave had in common on the ship was dehydration. Drinking water on board the slave ships was as good as gold. The crew got their share, but very few, if any, slaves got enough water to stay healthy.
On the African continent there are many regions where the inhabitants have adapted to the climate by the presence of a hormone that causes retention of sodium, which in turn retains water. Those "lucky" enough to have that hormone withstood the stress and effects of thirst far better than those who didn't have the hormone. When the ships finally reached shore on this side of the Atlantic most of the survivors had the genetic disposition to retain sodium. The very thing that kept them alive is now responsible for serious health problems for their descendents. On every ship that made the crossing loaded with slaves, selective breeding was an unintentional consequence.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Nataly 38]

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The high incidence of hypertension in African-Americans descended from slaves is not related to inbreeding.

You *really* didn't get it... I only mentioned inbreeding because people are most closely genetically similar to their family - I used inbreeding to explain genetics (which you seem not to have a clear understanding of). I did NOT use inbreeding to explain hypertension in African Americans descended from slaves. You made that connection - not me.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[wmw999 2,558]

Other PhD's disagree. (3 links).

It's not as widely held any more apparently.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>How do you prove something wrong was done to that individual?

Well, in some cases it's easy. If they were going to school in Virginia in 1966, for example, and were placed in one of the all-black schools,
and did not have the option of going to the white one - they were done wrong.

In most cases it's a _lot_ harder.

So you think something that happens to ones parent or grandparents justifies special treatment to that person? Sounds like a Hatfields and McCoys scenario. Surely that is nor what you are suggesting?

[wmw999 2,558]

Dunno how Bill feels, but post #88 express my thoughts on the matter.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Dunno how Bill feels, but post #88 express my thoughts on the matter.

Wendy P.

Would that make you a Hatfield or a McCoy?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Other PhD's disagree. (3 links).

It's not as widely held any more apparently.

Wendy P.

It would seem so. It was in the mid-80's when I sat in on the lecture.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The high incidence of hypertension in African-Americans descended from slaves is not related to inbreeding.

You *really* didn't get it... I only mentioned inbreeding because people are most closely genetically similar to their family - I used inbreeding to explain genetics (which you seem not to have a clear understanding of). I did NOT use inbreeding to explain hypertension in African Americans descended from slaves. You made that connection - not me.

You are correct, I am not an expert on genetics by any means. So i don't know what point you were trying to make other than, "There is a reason why (some) dog and cat breeders like to create "pure breeds"... Yes, they may be more susceptible to some ailments, but also they are more likely to display the characterictics they like in that particular breed.", which only reinforces the argument Jimmy the Greek was making but I don't think that was your intent.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[wmw999 2,558]

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It was in the mid-80's when I sat in on the lecture

It's a very attractive theory. That's exactly the kind of theory that the scientific method excels at -- it disproves it.

It's easy to look for supporting data for theories. But to fail to find disproving evidence with a carefully crafted approach -- that's a lot more golden.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nataly 38]

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I am not an expert on genetics by any means.

That was the point I was trying to make. You slammed another poster's point on the basis that he didn't understand genetics, when you didn't seem to understand it yourself. Just struck my as ironic and mildly hypocritical.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[billvon 3,088]

>So you think something that happens to ones parent or grandparents justifies
>special treatment to that person?

Nope. Like I said, in some cases it's easy. A kid who was discriminated against in 1966 has a good case that something wrong was done to him. (He would be about 50-60 now.)

In other cases it's a lot harder. A great many discrimination cases have been brought by people since then, and a great many of those have won their cases. Those are the ones who DO have good proof.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I am not an expert on genetics by any means.

That was the point I was trying to make. You slammed another poster's point on the basis that he didn't understand genetics, when you didn't seem to understand it yourself. Just struck my as ironic and mildly hypocritical.

What I was slamming was his assertion that, "You can't select for a trait by applying selective pressure for just a few generations". That is fundamentally wrong. Anybody who was raised on a farm will tell you just how quickly selective breeding affects a bloodline.
An example of how quickly it can work: In humans, Cystic Fibrosis is prevented by the CFTR gene. Most people have two of these genes. As long as one is ok they will not have CF. If both are defective, they will have CF. Both parents have to have at least one defective gene. When each parent has one defective gene the chances are one in four that their child will develope CF. If we wanted to play God (or Hitler) we could test every person when they are born and sterilize those that have a defective gene. By doing that we would wipe out CF in one generation.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.