GPS Locators in Firearms?

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Wht don't you just GPS every round instead?

What good would that do?

Because it is not the gun that commited the crime or is the cause of the injury.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[AggieDave 6]

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>So you would only track guns that are moving

I'd only track guns that have been fired, say within the last 12 hours. Only tracking guns that are moving is another potential option.

Bill, you're so far off the beaten path, I would argue that you're on some sort of drug.

Who would pay for every gun to be tracked all the time? Who would be responsible for watching this data and would the data be readily available with out a warrant? Would case law support this? Is it worth disregarding the 4th amendment to further hamper the 2nd? No, it is not.

Having personal professional experience with murder investigations, agg-assaults and deadly conduct crimes, what you are suggesting is as likely as suggesting that detectives be issued crystal balls, a tea leaf and chicken entrails to deduce the "truth" with witchcraft.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,110]

>Who would pay for every gun to be tracked all the time?

No one. Only guns that are fired are tracked.

>Who would be responsible for watching this data and would the data be
>readily available with out a warrant?

No one. You'd need a warrant to get it.

>what you are suggesting is as likely as suggesting that detectives be issued
>crystal balls, a tea leaf and chicken entrails to deduce the "truth" with
>witchcraft.

Why the emotional response? The same comments were made about location based services and E911 on phones. And while there have been problems with them, overall they've worked pretty well - and even helped prevent crimes.

[AggieDave 6]

Would you fathom a guess as to how many firearms are fired every single day? Not in crimes, not hunting, but target shooting, some people at ranges, some people out on their own property.

What is amazing to me is that by the numbers, very few people are killed each year by someone actually committing a murder. However, people are ready to toss out their 2nd and 4th amendment rights to make up grandiose solutions that will do no good. However, more than double the number of people are killed on the roads in the US each year, but people being ticketed for unsafe driving (speeding, rolling stop signs, etc) is socially frowned upon.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,110]

>Would you fathom a guess as to how many firearms are fired every single day?
>Not in crimes, not hunting, but target shooting, some people at ranges, some
>people out on their own property.

Quite a lot. Which is why you'd need a court order to get any info, and it would have to contain the location, time and date the weapon was fired.

Let's say you are investigating a drive by shooting where six people were killed. If the information was available that showed which weapons were fired on that street at that location at the time of the killing, and where they were right now - would you want it?

>However, more than double the number of people are killed on the roads in
>the US each year, but people being ticketed for unsafe driving (speeding,
>rolling stop signs, etc) is socially frowned upon.

Agreed. Locator technologies like Onstar help reduce vehicular fatality rates by getting aid quickly to people who are in incapacitating accidents, via GPS locators. They can also be used to reduce crime by locating stolen cars. Do you oppose that as well, as a violation of people's 4th amendment rights?

[mnealtx 0]

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Quite a lot. Which is why you'd need a court order to get any info, and it would have to contain the location, time and date the weapon was fired.

Which negates your earlier argument about having the information at the murder scene.

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Agreed. Locator technologies like Onstar help reduce vehicular fatality rates by getting aid quickly to people who are in incapacitating accidents, via GPS locators. They can also be used to reduce crime by locating stolen cars. Do you oppose that as well, as a violation of people's 4th amendment rights?

Onstar is triggered by an accident or after theft, not from normal use like you suggest for the gun tracker. Not applicable, sorry.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AggieDave 6]

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Agreed. Locator technologies like Onstar help reduce vehicular fatality rates by getting aid quickly to people who are in incapacitating accidents, via GPS locators. They can also be used to reduce crime by locating stolen cars. Do you oppose that as well, as a violation of people's 4th amendment rights?

Ok, you're comparing apples and oranges. There is case law that supports that a motor vehicle doesn't fall under the same full protection as a residence. For example, if an officer stops a car and sees narcotics in plain view, the entire car can be searched. If an officer knocks on your door and sees narcotics, he has to secure the scene to prevent the destruction of evidence and obtain a search warrant signed by a magistrate.

OnStar has done very little to prevent fatality accidents. OnStar can call first responders, but many times it is much too late. In fact out of the fatality accidents that I personally investigated over the past two years, not a one was assisted by OnStar.

Bill, have you ever signed up for a citizens police academy with a local agency? I seem to remember suggesting that to you a long while back, to help give you perspective to real world police work.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,110]

>Which negates your earlier argument about having the information at the
>murder scene.

So it is your belief that investigators at a murder scene cannot get court orders? Interesting.

>Onstar is triggered by an accident or after theft, not from normal use like you
>suggest for the gun tracker.

Onstar is indeed triggered during normal use. Just push a button.

[billvon 3,110]

>OnStar has done very little to prevent fatality accidents.

Well, given that there have been 100,000 crashes reported by the system, and that there have been several cases of people trapped in cars unable to free themselves (but rescued by first responders responding to an OnStar call) - that may be true, but it certainly helps get care to people after they _have_ a potentially fatal accident.

It also can help prevent crime, and make it easier to arrest criminals:

===============
OnStar prevents its first high-speed chase

by Chris Shunk
Oct 20th 2009 at 10:57AM

Though announced nearly two years ago, the service that allows OnStar to remotely disable a vehicle's gas pedal is still not yet available on all GM models – for 2010, about 18 of 30 vehicles in the lineup have the capability. Early Sunday morning, however, police in Visalia, California were the first to work with OnStar to remotely disable the engine of a stolen 2009 Chevrolet Tahoe and prevent what would have certainly been a high-speed chase. The vehicle in question was allegedly carjacked by a 21-year-old armed with a sawed off shotgun.
===============

Again, do you oppose OnStar based on the potential for fourth amendment violations?

[AggieDave 6]

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Again, do you oppose OnStar based on the potential for fourth amendment violations?

Again, this has been handled more than a few times through the court system. Vehicles do not have the same protections that persons do in their homes.

So you didn't do the citizen's police academy? You really should look into it. It'll give you a lot of insight into modern police work and how it really works.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mnealtx 0]

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So it is your belief that investigators at a murder scene cannot get court orders? Interesting.

And it's your belief that they can instantly get a court order and access/sift the info while they're still at the crime scene? Real life isn't like CSI, Bill - sorry to bust your bubble.

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>Onstar is triggered by an accident or after theft, not from normal use like you suggest for the gun tracker.

Onstar is indeed triggered during normal use. Just push a button.

You're not going to activate Onstar unless you have a problem. The same doesn't hold true for a firearm, as pointed out above.

Time to give this one up, bill..it's a particularly bad analogy.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,110]

>Again, this has been handled more than a few times through the court system.

Cool. So do you oppose OnStar based on the potential for fourth amendment violations?

>So you didn't do the citizen's police academy?

I'll answer your question if you answer mine!

[billvon 3,110]

>And it's your belief that they can instantly get a court order and
>access/sift the info while they're still at the crime scene?

Nope, never said that. But keep making shit up and you're bound to get to something I actually think eventually.

>You're not going to activate Onstar unless you have a problem.

Bzzzt! Sorry, it activates by itself depending on a wide variety of inputs. It can even be used to track vehicles that have been stolen - even if the criminal does not press any buttons. It can then be used to help the police find and apprehend the criminal. (Starting to sound familiar . . .)

[rushmc 23]

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Again, do you oppose OnStar based on the potential for fourth amendment violations?

Again, this has been handled more than a few times through the court system. Vehicles do not have the same protections that persons do in their homes.

So you didn't do the citizen's police academy? You really should look into it. It'll give you a lot of insight into modern police work and how it really works.

I do not believe he cares how this would really works
He is jerking chains or

his view of another liberal utopia is clouding the thought processes


The feeding should really stop

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,110]

>He is jerking chains

Not jerking chains at all; in fact I stated that it was a good idea in theory but is not practical in the real world. Conservatives just see anything that isn't 100% pro-gun and their knees start jerking.

[rushmc 23]

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>He is jerking chains

Not jerking chains at all; in fact I stated that it was a good idea in theory but is not practical in the real world. Conservatives just see anything that isn't 100% pro-gun and their knees start jerking.

Nope

You are just doing what you once stated you are here to do

The only knee jerking is yours and the need to feed your fantasies

And it must be a knee jerking fantasy as it seems to be a favorite knee jerk comment from you lately

Enjoyable none the less

a jerking fantasy

or



something

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,110]

>The only knee jerking is yours and the need to feed your fantasies
>And it must bea knee jerking fantasy as it seems to be a favorite knee jerk
>comment from you lately

You're losing it, my angry friend.

[rushmc 23]

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>The only knee jerking is yours and the need to feed your fantasies
>And it must bea knee jerking fantasy as it seems to be a favorite knee jerk
>comment from you lately

You're losing it, my angry friend.

Angry????

Your projections are showing


Angry





I dont get angry at pathetic

Do you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

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Let's imagine what such a report might look like:

An interesting conops but still a few fatal problems...

1) You're presupposing a successful universal gun registry so when you go to the last coordinates and find a ditched firearm you can figure out who fired it.

2) Not sure if pre-emptively collecting volumes of this kind of data on people would be constitutional even if you promise not to look at it. It's not really the same as getting a warrant for phone records, bank statements, etc. as those have legitimate reasons to exist outside of law enforcement.

3) In order for the system to be at all useful the gun would have to fail-disabled (otherwise you could just intentionally exhuast the power supply) which creates all kinds of problems, some of which have already been talked about in the biometric safety discussions.

[AggieDave 6]

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I do not believe he cares how this would really works
He is jerking chains or

his view of another liberal utopia is clouding the thought processes


The feeding should really stop

I agree. That's really too bad. Well, that's how SC has evolved over the past 10 years. Once SC was split from Talk Back, people have really polarized on DZ.com.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhaig 0]

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>so you're going to ask the judge to issue a warrant because they were in
>the vicinity with their legally purchased, legally carried, unmodified chipped,
>tracked firearm??

If they fired it in the same location, at the same time that the murder occurred - yes.

Which is pretty reasonable. If you walked into a police station and said "so I was at the location of the murder, and I fired my gun near the victim at the same time his death occurred - but it wasn't me" they might ask you a few questions about it, no?

oh!!! so we're not tracking location, but use now as well.

so now it's a more complex mechanism. Let's add DNA registries and electronic palm matching while we're being all fanciful ok?

--
Rob

[mnealtx 0]

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>And it's your belief that they can instantly get a court order and access/sift the info while they're still at the crime scene?

Nope, never said that. But keep making shit up and you're bound to get to something I actually think eventually.

"So looking at a murder scene, and knowing that the gun that was used is now a mile north of your present location, would be of no real use?" Post 13, author billvon

Hilarious you talk about making shit up, since that's all you've done this entire thread.

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>You're not going to activate Onstar unless you have a problem.

Bzzzt! Sorry, it activates by itself depending on a wide variety of inputs. It can even be used to track vehicles that have been stolen - even if the criminal does not press any buttons. It can then be used to help the police find and apprehend the criminal. (Starting to sound familiar . . .)

I'm aware of that, I mentioned accidents and theft in post 56, after which you mentioned manual activation in post 58.

Onstar isn't going to be triggered (whether manually or automatically) unless there's a problem - accident, theft, or "I've locked myself in the car!" (yes, that's a joke). Your gun locator is recording location and usage whether legal or criminal.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[firemedic 7]

Oh my God!
Sometimes the idiocy of the power hungry gun haters just cracks me up.

[billvon 3,110]

>1) You're presupposing a successful universal gun registry so when you go to
>the last coordinates and find a ditched firearm you can figure out who fired it.

Well, no. It just has a unique device ID. It is not necessarily connected to any name. It's akin to an Ethernet device; every one is unique, but there's no information linking the device itself to the owner. Afterwards you could know "yes, this is the gun that was fired here on this date, and it was taken to this location via this route" but could not say "and it belonged to Joe." (Hard to do that anyway, since guns are often stolen.)

>In order for the system to be at all useful the gun would have to
>fail-disabled (otherwise you could just intentionally exhuast the power supply)

I imagine it would be powered from parasitic power from the discharge itself. A piezo device can recover about a watt-hour from a relatively energetic event (i.e. a drop of a laptop from three feet onto a concrete floor.) When the stored energy from the discharge is gone, it stops transmitting.

[billvon 3,110]

>Onstar isn't going to be triggered (whether manually or automatically) unless
>there's a problem - accident, theft, or "I've locked myself in the car!" (yes, that's
>a joke).

Onstar is used to collect regular maintenance data from cars, and can be used to track cars remotely. Indeed, such information has been obtained under court order to track suspects.

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