Welfare Baby.

[jgoose71 0]

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Had an old girlfrend who went her own way. She met an out of work bike mechanic, dropped out of school and got pregnant. She started climbing with him. He had a lot of problems - tried to kill her a few times, threw her out a window, strangled her etc. He ended up in jail for domestic violence (against someone else, not her.)

Now her daughter is at Harvard, she has two more daughters, she's remarried and helping her mother run her business. She also got her PhD and teaches part time.

I wouldn't count your friend out yet. People can turn themselves around.

I have to agree. I can't say that I've know anyone to turn them selves around though. It all boils down to if they want to. Hopefully she is mature enough to know that if she keeps the baby, her social life is over and the next several years are work.

If she doesn't understand that and wants to keep "hangin out with her buds" or what ever she is doing now, her best but is abortion or give it up for adoption. She won't be able to provide a good life for her kid.

Man did you just lose your standing with Turtle and Divot.. et al.... by suggesting she murder her child

Well, to some, "Family Values" also means not having a child until you are ready to provide a good life for the child. The pro-life-at-all-costs crowd would argue that any abortion could kill the next Davinci, or what would the world been like without Steven Hawking.

Sadly the prison system is still made up of about 80% prisoners from broken homes. Do you think Beethoven's skills would have flourished from Sing-Sing? Not every baby born can cure cancer, not every single mother will turn her life around for her kid. It's simple facts. (Don't fret, I'm still a Republican/Tea party dude. Notice how I included a factual statistic in my rant?)

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[popsjumper 2]

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That's a great story Bill. Most of the children in this scenario end up in a bio-hazard bag at the back of some abortion clinic. But that's OK with the pro-choice crowd....

...and some of the others live a long life with a debilitating disease being miserable and dependent their entire lives...at least those who are cognizant enough to understand their plight. But that's OK with the fanatics who-want-to-tell-me-how-to-live-MY-life.

"Listen, you little zygote. I could give a rat's ass how fucked up your life is gonna be. You're gonna live it and suffer because I said so!"
Great. Just great.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Amazon 7]

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Had an old girlfrend who went her own way. She met an out of work bike mechanic, dropped out of school and got pregnant. She started climbing with him. He had a lot of problems - tried to kill her a few times, threw her out a window, strangled her etc. He ended up in jail for domestic violence (against someone else, not her.)

Now her daughter is at Harvard, she has two more daughters, she's remarried and helping her mother run her business. She also got her PhD and teaches part time.

I wouldn't count your friend out yet. People can turn themselves around.

I have to agree. I can't say that I've know anyone to turn them selves around though. It all boils down to if they want to. Hopefully she is mature enough to know that if she keeps the baby, her social life is over and the next several years are work.

If she doesn't understand that and wants to keep "hangin out with her buds" or what ever she is doing now, her best but is abortion or give it up for adoption. She won't be able to provide a good life for her kid.

Man did you just lose your standing with Turtle and Divot.. et al.... by suggesting she murder her child

Well, to some, "Family Values" also means not having a child until you are ready to provide a good life for the child. The pro-life-at-all-costs crowd would argue that any abortion could kill the next Davinci, or what would the world been like without Steven Hawking.

Sadly the prison system is still made up of about 80% prisoners from broken homes. Do you think Beethoven's skills would have flourished from Sing-Sing? Not every baby born can cure cancer, not every single mother will turn her life around for her kid. It's simple facts. (Don't fret, I'm still a Republican/Tea party dude. Notice how I included a factual statistic in my rant?)

Hey I liked the rant
I know that not all republicans are fundamentalist cavemen but it certainly seems that way most of the time. Pro choice or moderate republicans have been run out of voting for the party as it has become more radicalized as the majority jump on the way back machine. They wish to return to times that are more palatable to cavemen constituents where they expect their spawn to be raised by their women under all circumstances once they get em pregnant.

[airdvr 210]

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That's a great story Bill. Most of the children in this scenario end up in a bio-hazard bag at the back of some abortion clinic. But that's OK with the pro-choice crowd....

...and some of the others live a long life with a debilitating disease being miserable and dependent their entire lives...at least those who are cognizant enough to understand their plight. But that's OK with the fanatics who-want-to-tell-me-how-to-live-MY-life.

"Listen, you little zygote. I could give a rat's ass how fucked up your life is gonna be. You're gonna live it and suffer because I said so!"
Great. Just great.

You assume their life will be fucked up. How arrogant. Alternatives...adoption. Lots of folks not able to have kids looking for kids they can adopt. No one is forced to keep a newborn. Fundmental difference between the lifers and the choicers is their view of the possiblilty that this child could have a great life if given the chance.

I would have been aborted today except in 1958 that wasn't a viable alternative. I was adopted by loving parents who gave me a great life. Now I have kids of my own. A very nice life that I am thankful for. You would deny me that right to a chance.

BTW...I don't consider myself pro-life to the extent that I would repeal Roe v Wade. That's a decision every woman must make for herself. I just wonder how serious some women are in exploring the alternatives.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 4]

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I would have been aborted today except in 1958 that wasn't a viable alternative.

You're fooling yourself. It may not have been the safest alternative or the socially acceptable alternative (not that it is today either), but abortions have been a viable alternative for thousands of years.

It was certainly a viable alternative in 1958. Hell, Blue Denim opened on Broadway in February of 1958.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

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I would have been aborted today except in 1958 that wasn't a viable alternative.

You're fooling yourself. It may not have been the safest alternative or the socially acceptable alternative (not that it is today either), but abortions have been a viable alternative for thousands of years.

It was certainly a viable alternative in 1958. Hell, Blue Denim opened on Broadway in February of 1958.

Ok..perhaps viable wasn't the right term. I'm thinking not as safe or easy as today.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rehmwa 2]

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I would have been aborted today except in 1958 that wasn't a viable alternative.

You're fooling yourself. It may not have been the safest alternative or the socially acceptable alternative (not that it is today either), but abortions have been a viable alternative for thousands of years.

It was certainly a viable alternative in 1958. Hell, Blue Denim opened on Broadway in February of 1958.

Ok..perhaps viable wasn't the right term. I'm thinking not as safe or easy as today.

no, no, Quade's right.

The fact that you are alive must have been a grave misjudgment by your birth mother - she really should have done her homework better

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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That's a great story Bill. Most of the children in this scenario end up in a bio-hazard bag at the back of some abortion clinic. But that's OK with the pro-choice crowd....

...and some of the others live a long life with a debilitating disease being miserable and dependent their entire lives...at least those who are cognizant enough to understand their plight. But that's OK with the fanatics who-want-to-tell-me-how-to-live-MY-life.

"Listen, you little zygote. I could give a rat's ass how fucked up your life is gonna be. You're gonna live it and suffer because I said so!"
Great. Just great.

You assume their life will be fucked up. How arrogant. Alternatives...adoption.

You missed the point entirely. I'll repeat with emphasis added:

"...and some of the others live a long life with a debilitating disease being miserable and dependent their entire lives...at least those who are cognizant enough to understand their plight. But that's OK with the fanatics who-want-to-tell-me-how-to-live-MY-life."

Do you want...
-a person with a debilitating disease being miserable and dependent their entire lives, or
-one that isn't even cognizant enough to understand his plight
...to live out their lives in that condition?

I'm sorry. I'd have a very hard time forcing that on anyone. Doing so would be extremely arrogant, in my book.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Lots of folks not able to have kids looking for kids they can adopt.

Yes. There's also a lot of kids out there that are NOT being adopted, too. Even completely healthy ones.

What chance is there for the unhealthy ones...the one with debilitating diseases and such. A chance yes...a very small chance, yes. How small? You tell me. It would be a great thing if ALL those kids were adopted by loving, caring parents. It's just that reality gets in the way.

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Fundmental difference between the lifers and the choicers is their view of the possiblilty that this child could have a great life if given the chance.

I disagree with that statement.
I see the fundamental difference in the choice.
Pro-lifers would deny that choice. Simple as that.

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BTW...I don't consider myself pro-life to the extent that I would repeal Roe v Wade. That's a decision every woman must make for herself.

So, in an either/or world you are Pro-choice.

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I just wonder how serious some women are in exploring the alternatives.

And I believe you are 100% correct and I totally agree with you here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Southern_Man 0]

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Yes. There's also a lot of kids out there that are NOT being adopted, too. Even completely healthy ones.

This statement, i believe, is at least somewhat misleading. There are a large number of kids in the foster care system and/or eligible for adoption but that are not being adopted. This is true. There are a couple of things that lead to this situation: 1. The kids are not healthy--it is very hard to adopt out a child with disabilities especially severe disabilities. 2. The vast majority of kids who are adoption eligible but not being adopted did not become adoption eligible until they were older. This is due to the primacy of social service directives that family reunification is the goal and termination of parental rights and adoption eligibility can only begin after extensive efforts towards that have failed. Adopting out older children who often have emotional problems is also a difficult task.

These problems and issues are well known among people who work in any field of children's services.

There just are not a lot of healthy babies being willingly given up for adoption that do not have a long waiting list.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[peregrinerose 0]

Part of the other issue with adoption is that coughing up the $30,000ish that it costs to adopt a newborn, primarily in legal costs, doesn't ensure that the adoptive parent is a 'good' parent.

I did adopt a teenager out of foster care, and once he's a bit better, will likely do it again. He had 15 years to get pretty screwed up. He's made a lot of progress in 2 years... which is remarkable given that he has to learn a completely different reality than what he believed in for so long.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 3,120]

>Part of the other issue with adoption is that coughing up the $30,000ish
>that it costs to adopt a newborn, primarily in legal costs, doesn't ensure
>that the adoptive parent is a 'good' parent.

Indeed it sometimes keeps good parents from adopting.

Two friends of mine pursued that angle. She is a pediatric nurse; he's a store manager who used to be a middle school math teacher and swimming coach.

They eventually gave up on the process and tried fertility treatments. They worked - fortunately for them, unfortunately for potential adoptees.

[banesanura 1]

So here is what I wrote to my girl friend.

*
Daisy Saenz
o

You know I have always been honest with you.

I really hopes this makes you happy, despite the fact that I'm not quite happy.

I'm happy if you are, but I really had this "idea" about your life.

You know how I feel about Vince, he's a nice guy, but you can do so much fucking better and you know that.

I will never mention this topic again, but as my friend you should know how I feel. Plus in a few years you are probably going to tell me I'm right and your little nugget is going to be a stud muffin.

I really hope you prove me wrong Keli.

I'd rather have you hate me for the rest of your life and be happy, than know you could have made a better choice for yourself.

I'm not expecting a response from you, nor do I want one.


Keli I fucking love you to death. This is just something I had to get off my chest. I will support you in everything you do, but I just want to please let me know this is what you want to do. There are alternatives.

And you will probably be angry, but I'm doing this because I do care about you.



Keli I really hope you are making the best decision.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[masterblaster72 0]

Nice note.

Here's to hoping she goes to the clinic.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[skinnay 0]

So the guy has tattoos and doesn't make a lot of money.. who the hell are you to judge your friend's partner? Who the hell are you to say people with tattoos are bad parents. Its pretty fucking sickening that you think thats grounds for an abortion. I find it hard to believe you're a "good friend" of 10 years.

[popsjumper 2]

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So the guy has tattoos and doesn't make a lot of money..

This is the only part you got right. She did say that.

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who the hell are you to judge your friend's partner?

Whaaaa? You've never "judged" anyone? Humans do it all the time. It's part of life, and in many cases a very useful part.

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Who the hell are you to say people with tattoos are bad parents. Its pretty fucking sickening that you think thats grounds for an abortion.

Meh, you read more into it than was written.

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I find it hard to believe you're a "good friend" of 10 years.

Why is that? A good wing man watches out for you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[banesanura 1]

I didn't say abortion. I was talking about adoption. She's beyond abortion. Even her mother offered to pay for the abortion.

First off, both don't have jobs.

They cannot support themselves let alone a child.

I don't think its fair to raise a child to struggle and not have resources.

I never said guys with tattoos are bad parents either.

Just like you are questioning me and my character, I think as a friend I should have the same right.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[banesanura 1]

You know me, I always appreciate honesty, even if it could upset me or someone else. And your opinions and email doesn't upset me, so don't worry about that. I'm actually really surprised to get this email from you. But then again not so much lol, I know you're on a womens rights mission to prove that we aren't just fetus ovens. Ya know, I'm all for pro choice but since I've already had an abortion when I was 15 - I just can't do it again at 25. I just felt like I should take responsibility for my actions and keep the baby. I have no clue what's going to happen in a week, a year, or when I'm 80. So I'm just going day by day and seeing what the best option is. Yeeeah I have a track record for making bad decisions and fucking shit up even more but since I've been pregnant I haven't been able or even wanted to have one drink and that is a great feeling cause you know me. Things go to hell when I drink. For now things are good with Vince and I. Will that change? Who knows. I do have options, and some are tempting but right now they aren't the best option. You know most people would have taken this the wrong way but it's nice knowing you still care. I worry about you too sometimes but then I remember that you always find a way to make shit work.



that was her response.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[sacex250 0]

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Nice note.

Here's to hoping she goes to the clinic.

How the hell is she going to go to the clinic when the thread was started in February? It's a little late now isn't it?

The OP needs to stop trying to play god with the world and mind her own business.

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[banesanura 1]

YOU stop playing god and mind your own business.

Best Girl Scout Ever.