More good cops in the news.

[david3 0]

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you have to stop. Secure him, detain him but don’t beat him. I’ll be the first to admit I couldn’t do it.

I don't get that. Why? what isn't functioning correctly in your psyche? Do you think it's a character flaw or something admirable or even impressive?

Worse yet, some people find this attitude to be macho rather than, frankly, sad and pathetic. And it ends up being some kind of posturing.

Everyone (mature adults without seriously mental health issues) has a choice to control themselves. You CHOOSE to stop. I don't believe someone "can't" stop - it's a "won't" thing. and an crappy excuse to cross that line.

It's a seriously question. I've never heard a good reason for someone even thinking that about themselves.

Of course you are correct. “Couldn’t do it” is probably too strong. I guess I am just trying not to put myself above those committing these acts when I haven’t been in their shoes. Of course you should “CHOOSE to stop”. But when I see these kinds of video I try to give the benefit of the doubt. What makes a seemingly rational person lose control, the vestigial remains of early man? You see it in police pursuits too. Is the adrenalin flowing so much it overpowers rational thought? My point is that it is wrong and obviously those that don’t “CHOSE to stop” shouldn’t be wearing a badge. If I thought it was “something admirable or even impressive”, I wouldn’t have started out by saying “you have to stop”.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Yep. I do like the interesting fact that the video was not used at trial - as if whether or not cops beat the shit out of him is relevant as to whether he committed a burglary.

I'm torn on this. I agree it's wholly irrelevent to his guilt or innocence, however I could see reducing a sentence somewhat from whatever the standard is to account for the punishment already received, similar to a credit for time served.

Blues,
Dave

I don't - these are totally different crimes and shouldn't relate at all.

The attack victim has a civil action against the bad cops if he feels he's owed anything. The fact that the attack victim and the burglar are the same guy is inconsequential in terms of sentencing the burglary.

Justice for the beating is putting the attackers in jail for their separate crime(s). It has nothing to do with the victim other than seeing that the attackers are punished appropriately.

Do you think the kid would have gotten life in a Texas prison for attempted murder and a long laundry list of other charges if he had aimed his car at a police office the way they did to him???

maybe two years back a police-car rammed someone they mistakenly thought was a burglar as well. the suspected burglar had his leg to be amputated. turns out they were not looking for him. IIRC, the officers got away with next to nothing..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

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My point is that it is wrong and obviously those that don’t “CHOSE to stop” shouldn’t be wearing a badge.

thanks for you insight on it

I'd say I would hold every person to that standard and not just cops. It would be a betrayal no matter what.

(however, certainly a standard that would be a 'definite' for a cop and reason for immediate dismissal if they fail to meet that standard due to the fact they would be placed in a position to test that standard more often than your average joe. But I still wouldn't 'increase' the punishment of the individual, but I would call into question the selection process of a department that didn't screen successfully - that's where 'society' has to pay for their protectors failing to meet that trust. The individual gets punished just like everyone else - also they can't hold that type of job if they ever did or not.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

So...I read a story here in GA about two cops in a boat.

They were drinking on the lake. The helmsman sideswipes a buoy and the passenger gets tossed and drowns.

The cop gets 4 years for:
-second degree homicide by vessel,
-tampering with evidence,
-violating the oath of a police officer and
-three counts of making false statements"

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/former-officer-pleads-guilty-803397.html?cxtype=rss_news


And then I read a story about a guy in California that gets 4 years for:
-two counts of felony animal cruelty.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F02%2F09%2FBA461HL35C.DTL


Beaten Dog = Killed human.
Go figure.

Do you see anything wrong with this?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Kennedy 0]

What were their respective criminal histories? Many states take prior convictions into account for sentencing. Also, it's tough to compare laws and punishments across state lines, especially when the states are west coast California and southeast bible belt Georgia.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[virgin-burner 1]

you got an excuse for everything, right!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Kennedy 0]

No, I've just bothered to educated myself on how the criminal justice system works, how states have structured their sentencing guidelines, and other things that affect the final number. You on the other hand seem to see the number, form an emotional response, and stop there. If you're comfortable with ignorance and emotional responses, have fun and good luck. I prefer a significantly higher standard.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[virgin-burner 1]

oh yea, you're so much better than everyone else on here; let's hope a cop wont suspect you for something and put a bullet through your head or something similar..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[normiss 892]

The criminal justice system DOESN'T work.

[turtlespeed 226]

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The criminal justice system DOESN'T work.

Perhaps, but it does seem to be the best the world has to offer.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Kennedy 0]

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The criminal justice system DOESN'T work.

Have you got a better idea?

Like the turtle said, it's the worst one in the world, except for all the others.

You do understand about sentencing matrices and other factors that can affect the length of active time order by the court as result of criminal convictions, right?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PiLFy 3]

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Perhaps, but it does seem to be the best the world has to offer.

Dunno. I think we could learn a thing or two from the Chinese, sometimes. Remember those crooked Chinese business owners who intentionally caused many babies to die from mercury(?) poisoning a few years back? They weren't sent to the Chinese Club Fed for a few years to chill out in style. They were executed as a warning to others not to cross that line. Barbaric? I would say effective & just.

Many people have lost faith in a legal system that only protects the privileged. The time is coming in this country when people will have to take responsibility for their actions.

[Bolas 5]

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The time is coming in this country when people will have to take responsibility for their actions.

We're not heading that direction. The exact opposite.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[PiLFy 3]

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[turtlespeed 226]

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I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

All you have to do is look at the "kids today". Take a few moments and think about how society in this country teaches kids responsibility.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PiLFy 3]

Some members seem to LOVE to argue, here. I'm not one of them. Lest I be accused of dumping & running. I'll put out an example. Want to radicalize a large segment of the population? Take away their houses. I don't mean people who never should have been given loans in the first place. I mean people who lost their livelihoods when the POSs crashed the economy. People who plugged away, & did the right things for decades. Steal homes & futures away from millions of hardworking Americans, & watch what happens.

Things are going the other way? Have you not noticed the increasing voter outrage over the past few years?

[turtlespeed 226]

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Some members seem to LOVE to argue, here. I'm not one of them. Lest I be accused of dumping & running. I'll put out an example. Want to radicalize a large segment of the population? Take away their houses. I don't mean people who never should have been given loans in the first place. I mean people who lost their livelihoods when the POSs crashed the economy. People who plugged away, & did the right things for decades. Steal homes & futures away from millions of hardworking Americans, & watch what happens.

Things are going the other way? Have you not noticed the increasing voter outrage over the past few years?

I saw the last elections results.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[popsjumper 2]

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No, I've just bothered to educated myself on how the criminal justice system works, how states have structured their sentencing guidelines, and other things that affect the final number.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that a DUI death and a dog beating having the same consequences is OK with you because state sentencing guidelines may be different in the relevant states?

Yes, I know different state sentencing guidelines are the facts and that we have to live with it. I'm asking you on a personal level...emotional, if you will.

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What were their respective criminal histories? Many states take prior convictions into account for sentencing. Also, it's tough to compare laws and punishments across state lines, especially when the states are west coast California and southeast bible belt Georgia.

Also, really Kennedy. I don't see the educated (sic) you are speaking about. All I see is questions raised...no statements indicating "educated".

Are you taking the stance that the DUI death sentence is prim and proper in Georgia and that the dog beating sentence is California is prim and proper because the perp may have a record of some sort?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I saw the last elections results.

Which, IMO, fell far short of what change was hoped for and I'm not addressing D to R change...I'm addressing insane to sane change.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 892]

Sure it's working.
Incarcerations are at an all time high, states can barely cover the expenses (about $50 BILLION), people are being arrested and charged for petty crimes more than ever. If a cop shows up, you're getting a ticket or going to jail.
Making enemies of fellow citizens is a wonderful approach.
You're right, it's working fine. For those that are 'better than the rest' anyway.

[PiLFy 3]

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I saw the last elections results.

Which, IMO, fell far short of what change was hoped for and I'm not addressing D to R change...I'm addressing insane to sane change.

Yep...

[regulator 0]

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Yep. I do like the interesting fact that the video was not used at trial - as if whether or not cops beat the shit out of him is relevant as to whether he committed a burglary.

I'm torn on this. I agree it's wholly irrelevent to his guilt or innocence, however I could see reducing a sentence somewhat from whatever the standard is to account for the punishment already received, similar to a credit for time served.

Blues,
Dave

I don't - these are totally different crimes and shouldn't relate at all.

The attack victim has a civil action against the bad cops if he feels he's owed anything. The fact that the attack victim and the burglar are the same guy is inconsequential in terms of sentencing the burglary.

Justice for the beating is putting the attackers in jail for their separate crime(s). It has nothing to do with the victim other than seeing that the attackers are punished appropriately.

I think each of your views can be reasonably harmonized.
Generally, the circumstances of arrest should be irrelevant to sentencing. An exception might be that if the defendant suffers a severe enough wrongful beating at the hands of the state, I can see a sentencing judge considering that a part of his "punishment". Take this case, for example. Let's say a judge might be inclined to sentence the burglar to, say, 12 months in jail, followed by 2 years probation, for the burglary. Might not be unreasonable for the judge to knock a month or 2 off the jail time as "punishment credit" for the cops beating the shit out of him at arrest.

As for categories of justice:
Justice for the people of Texas: fair trial of suspect; reasonable sentence if convicted.
Justice for the people of Texas: fair trial of cops; reasonable sentence if convicted.
Civil justice for suspect: reasonable opportunity to sue the cops and their employers for civil assault and possibly violation of his civil rights; fair civil jury trial, and let the chips fall where they may.

Andy how many times have you seen a judge reduce a sentance because of unlawful arrest procedures like this one? (I'm asking your professional advice sir)

And Quannel X is a total jackass. He does nothing more than try and get lighter sentences by using race as an excuse for criminals that commit horrendous offenses...and yes robbery is a horrendous offense...no matter what age commits the crime...this guy is just lucky this is going on his juvenile record...so he still has a chance to become something better. Will he? Antother question entirely.

[Kennedy 0]

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No, I've just bothered to educated myself on how the criminal justice system works, how states have structured their sentencing guidelines, and other things that affect the final number.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that a DUI death and a dog beating having the same consequences is OK with you because state sentencing guidelines may be different in the relevant states?

Yes, I know different state sentencing guidelines are the facts and that we have to live with it. I'm asking you on a personal level...emotional, if you will.

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What were their respective criminal histories? Many states take prior convictions into account for sentencing. Also, it's tough to compare laws and punishments across state lines, especially when the states are west coast California and southeast bible belt Georgia.

Also, really Kennedy. I don't see the educated (sic) you are speaking about. All I see is questions raised...no statements indicating "educated".

Are you taking the stance that the DUI death sentence is prim and proper in Georgia and that the dog beating sentence is California is prim and proper because the perp may have a record of some sort?

Well, you noticed that I failed to remove a 'D' when rephrasing a sentence. It started as "I educated myself" but was rephrased to "I bothered to educate myself" to contrast with those who haven't bothered. Congratulations. And another pat on the back for your underhanded ad hominem. It was far more subtle than most.

I raised those questions because without knowing the answer to them, one cannot form a rational and logical decision as to whether the sentences were appropriate and proportional or not. Unless a person thinks that there should be no mitigating or aggravating circumstances, simply knowing the crimes and the sentences handed out IS NOT ENOUGH. Unless a person thinks that prior criminal convictions should always be ignored during sentencing, simply knowing the crimes and the sentences handed out IS NOT ENOUGH. Unless a person thinks there should be no plea bargains made ever, simply knowing the crimes and the sentences handed out IS NOT ENOUGH.

In a simple world, all else being equal, do I think a person convicted of two counts of felony animal cruelty should be given the same sentence as someone convicted of second degree homicide by vessel, tampering with evidence, violating the oath of a police officer, and three counts of making false statements? Absolutely not. I think they both should have gotten more than four years, and the filthy puke that killed a man and tried to cover it up should get significantly more.

That is my emotional response. Thankfully, emotions generally don't affect sentences all that much, and most judges are bound by sentencing guidelines laid out in advance. And since those little words in red are not the case, that emotional response is even more invalid.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*