Victory for Western Values, and the Limits of Tolerance

[okalb 104]

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But consider: You've never banned me for personal attacks, yet you're making one now. Nice going.

How is reposting your own words a personal attack. If you think that is a personal attack it explains a lot about why you think everyone is out to get you. Ok, maybe not everyone, just muslims, liberals and everyone else that you don't like.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Guest]

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>And yes, Bill, I really do live in Kuwait. I'll be more than happy to prove it if you wish . . .

No need; I have no reason to doubt that you are indeed there.

>I'm just too politically incorrect for Speaker's Corner . . .

No, if anything, you're going with the flow, and attacking the despised minority of the week. You're parroting the approved anti-Muslim rhetoric that the right has provided you, and that a great many people here on DZ.com echo. You're in good company.

>You've never banned me for personal attacks, yet you're making one now. Nice going.

You consider reprising old posts as "personal attacks?" If you honestly claim that you "make no apologies" then have the courage to stand behind what you said.

You are again correct. I copped out and took a cheap shot. I stand behind what I said.

However, to state that I am blindly, mindlessly parrotting right-wing rhetoric is disingenuous. I don't get Fox News ovee here (and I don't watch TV news anyway - that is so 20th Century)

As for how racist, bigoted and intolerant I am, please let me relate to y'all a little anecdote from last year.

I'm on my way through Madrid when I see the news about the Gaza flotilla fiasco. I notice it because one of the main newspapers in the country is on the rack in front of me, with a bloody scene from the boat and the words "Jewish Murderers" in Spanish on the front page. Ruh-roh, I think to myself, this can't be good back in Doha.

Sure enough, I get lots of extra attention from the Qatari Customs inspectors, who proceed to empty my bag on the counter, carefully examining each item, and asking "What is this? This? This? Why do you have this?"

I knew what was going on, because the QP are normally very laid back and easy-going, but they had seen the news about what had happened off the coast from Israel and this was their way of letting me (generically speaking, of course) know that they were upset about it and were expressing their displeasure about it in a childish way.

Did I get upset in turn, have an attitude, or otherwise descend to their level? That would have been counterproductive to say the least.

They eventually got bored with jerking me around and cut me loose. I just smiled and said "Shoukrahn," repacked my bag, and left.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,112]

>However, to state that I am blindly, mindlessly parrotting right-wing rhetoric is
>disingenuous.

Fair enough. The remarkable similarity between your rhetoric and the pervasive right-wing anti-Muslim rhetoric may be completely coincidental.

>As for how racist, bigoted and intolerant I am, please let me relate to y'all
>a little anecdote from last year.

You described a scene where inspectors paid you closer attention because of your nationality, something you yourself are an advocate of. And you claim to be tolerant because you did NOT snap, call them names or attack them? If so, then that's great; 99.999% of the Muslims here in the US show the same tolerance you do to the unwanted attention they get. Perhaps your experience with that sort of profiling will give you some insight into why others think it's a bad idea.

[Guest]

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>However, to state that I am blindly, mindlessly parrotting right-wing rhetoric is
>disingenuous.

Fair enough. The remarkable similarity between your rhetoric and the pervasive right-wing anti-Muslim rhetoric may be completely coincidental.

>As for how racist, bigoted and intolerant I am, please let me relate to y'all
>a little anecdote from last year.

You described a scene where inspectors paid you closer attention because of your nationality, something you yourself are an advocate of. And you claim to be tolerant because you did NOT snap, call them names or attack them? If so, then that's great; 99.999% of the Muslims here in the US show the same tolerance you do to the unwanted attention they get. Perhaps your experience with that sort of profiling will give you some insight into why others think it's a bad idea.

You are misinformed. Although they targeted me because I appeared to be an American, and they were right, there is something you may not be aware of. Over here, there is no separation of mosque and state. Politics ARE religion and vice-versa. Human nature being what it is, they assume everyone else thinks just like they do. Atheism, for example, is beyond their comprehension.

However, the point I was trying to make is that I fully understood where they were coming from, even if I thought it was cheap behavior. That's a far cry from a muslim broad (who may not have been Arab or Eastern at all - could have been native-born German, gone-to-convert for all I know. I didn't notice the woman's race in the article [and to tell the truth it would be kinda hard to do if she was dressed like a badminton birdie]) DEMANDING that the entire state of Germany bend to her will, just because of her membership in a death cult. You know that is the point I was making, your efforts at rhetorical obfuscation notwithstanding.

mh
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Great debate, BTW

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[popsjumper 2]

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He is just pissed that a camel did not go along with the benefits package.

Dammit, Jeanne!
I can dust myself off from ROTFLMAO but WTF...I have to have $1 for the washer because I P'dIMP.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 3,112]

>Over here, there is no separation of mosque and state. Politics ARE religion
>and vice-versa.

Yep. And yet some people here think that we should emulate them. Odd, ain't it?

> Human nature being what it is, they assume everyone else thinks just like
>they do. Atheism, for example, is beyond their comprehension.

Just as peaceful Muslims are beyond the comprehension of some here.

>That's a far cry from a muslim broad. . .DEMANDING that the entire state of
>Germany bend to her will,

Agreed. That would be more akin to the Westboro Baptists, who are Christians who demand that gays be put to death. (And there's a lot more of them than that one woman.)

[Amazon 7]

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He is just pissed that a camel did not go along with the benefits package.

Dammit, Jeanne!
I can dust myself off from ROTFLMAO but WTF...I have to have $1 for the washer because I P'dIMP.

Hey I turned down a sweet gig over at Balad Air Base.... the money was really good... but fuck... no guns for me... I am so not down with that shit... I am an equal opportunity lead thrower.... you toss some at me.. I wanna toss some back.... but the deal breaker.... yeah...

( I actually asked in the interview)

[headoverheels 334]

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Here in Kuwait, I am subject to some (rather draconian [and stupid, IMO]) islam-based laws. Do I flout them??? Demand that they change THEIR laws just to suit ME??? F*** no - it's THEIR COUNTRY.

mh

Are you a citizen there?

[Guest]

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He is just pissed that a camel did not go along with the benefits package.

Dammit, Jeanne!
I can dust myself off from ROTFLMAO but WTF...I have to have $1 for the washer because I P'dIMP.

Hey I turned down a sweet gig over at Balad Air Base.... the money was really good... but fuck... no guns for me... I am so not down with that shit... I am an equal opportunity lead thrower.... you toss some at me.. I wanna toss some back.... but the deal breaker.... yeah...

( I actually asked in the interview)

Balad's cool. Know plenty who have been up there. And yeah, the money's good, but no boomsticks. You don't need them anyway, and they won't help you. You're not up against nut-jobs with AK's: it's nut-jobs outside the wire with B-40s, mortars and VBIEDs. Your TA-50 is your best friend in that case, not a boomstick.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[popsjumper 2]

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.... but the deal breaker.... yeah...

( I actually asked in the interview)

So, I take it you didn't get the camel.


Talk to Clay...I imagine he would cut loose with a sheep or two.

Oh...excuse me...a ram or two.








OMG. I can't believe I said that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Hey I turned down a sweet gig over at Balad Air Base.... the money was really good...

I had a sweet gig at Tan Son Nhut but the money was for shit. I had to moonlight as a refrigerator salesman to make ends meet.

Does that count?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Guest]

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Here in Kuwait, I am subject to some (rather draconian [and stupid, IMO]) islam-based laws. Do I flout them??? Demand that they change THEIR laws just to suit ME??? F*** no - it's THEIR COUNTRY.

mh

Are you a citizen there?

Very good question. No, I am a resident alien, a (VERY documented - as in you wouldn't believe what you have to go through to get a work visa!) guest worker, as is every expatriate teacher, jet engine mechanic, petrochemical engineer, doctor and every other profession that the Arabs contract out, which is just about all of them. For example, you won't see a Qatari on a Qatar Airways jet, not even in the cockpit! The flight attendants are real cuties though, from places like Indonesia, Khazakstan, etc.

mh
.

Edit to add: So one respects the customs of the host country, even if one thinks they're incredibly stupid. One is a guest, after all. If you don't want to put up with it, go home. Too easy. I don't like it, but I put up with it. This broad in Frankfurt should do the same.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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Agreed. That would be more akin to the Westboro Baptists, who are Christians who demand that gays be put to death. (And there's a lot more of them than that one woman.)

We all know and agree that the Westboro pukes are a bunch of freakin' idiots.

But there are those who will characterize the Frankfurt government's "Nein" to this broad as racism. Not the same with the Westboro Whackos. Not the same at all.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,112]

>We all know and agree that the Westboro pukes are a bunch of freakin' idiots.

Yes, they are.

>But there are those who will characterize the Frankfurt government's "Nein" to
>this broad as racism.

No doubt. But provided that it is applied to all religions and races equally, it isn't.

>Not the same with the Westboro Whackos. Not the same at all.

You are correct. A group of people dedicated to attacking the families of deceased veterans is much, MUCH worse than a woman who wants to wear a funny dress.

And yet some people still support many of the same things the Westboro Baptists do - the immorality of homosexuality, the denial of gay rights, and the expulsion of decorated veterans from the US Military. That is far worse than supporting a woman who wants to wear a funny dress.

[Guest]

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>However, to state that I am blindly, mindlessly parrotting right-wing rhetoric is
>disingenuous.

Fair enough. The remarkable similarity between your rhetoric and the pervasive right-wing anti-Muslim rhetoric may be completely coincidental.

>As for how racist, bigoted and intolerant I am, please let me relate to y'all
>a little anecdote from last year.

You described a scene where inspectors paid you closer attention because of your nationality, something you yourself are an advocate of. And you claim to be tolerant because you did NOT snap, call them names or attack them? If so, then that's great; 99.999% of the Muslims here in the US show the same tolerance you do to the unwanted attention they get. Perhaps your experience with that sort of profiling will give you some insight into why others think it's a bad idea.

I didn't run crying to the ACLU (Arabic Civil Liberties Union) over how I was treated, either. Nor did I act as an agent provocateur as did the Flying Imams. This broad tried to bend an entire nation to her will. And she is just one of many who are doing the same thing, in different ways, throughout Europe.

The European nations have the right to preserve their respective cultures and ways of life, and to defend them from aliens who enter, take benefits, contribute little or nothing (except more mouths to feed), demand that the country change to fit THEIR ways, and riot whenever anyone tries to call them out on it.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,112]

>I didn't run crying to the ACLU (Arabic Civil Liberties Union) over how I
>was treated, either.

Right. But some Christians DID run crying to lawyers when similar things happened to them. Doesn't mean all Christians are crybabies, any more than this woman makes all Muslims unreasonable.

>Nor did I act as an agent provocateur as did the Flying Imams.

Right. But some Christians DID specifically try to cause a huge stink just to make a point. Doesn't mean all Christians are agent provocateurs, any more than this woman makes all Muslims unreasonable.

>The European nations have the right to preserve their respective cultures and ways of
>life, and to defend them from aliens who enter, take benefits, contribute little or
>nothing (except more mouths to feed), demand that the country change to fit THEIR
>ways, and riot whenever anyone tries to call them out on it.

Sure they do. And the US has the right to preserve their culture, and defend it from bigots who try to single out minorities to attack.

[Guest]

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>We all know and agree that the Westboro pukes are a bunch of freakin' idiots.

Yes, they are.

>But there are those who will characterize the Frankfurt government's "Nein" to
>this broad as racism.

No doubt. But provided that it is applied to all religions and races equally, it isn't.

>Not the same with the Westboro Whackos. Not the same at all.

You are correct. A group of people dedicated to attacking the families of deceased veterans is much, MUCH worse than a woman who wants to wear a funny dress.

And yet some people still support many of the same things the Westboro Baptists do - the immorality of homosexuality, the denial of gay rights, and the expulsion of decorated veterans from the US Military. That is far worse than supporting a woman who wants to wear a funny dress.

You're comparing a handful of pathetic, silly people (to whom no one would pay any attention at all if they weren't screaming and making fools out of themselves [like the gays]) to a tidal wave of hatred that is washing over Europe. And if the Europeans want to preserve their cultural identity, why they're racist bigots! Down! Bad!

I don't see, even through the rhetoric, a comparison to be reasonably and logically made.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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>I didn't run crying to the ACLU (Arabic Civil Liberties Union) over how I
>was treated, either.

Right. But some Christians DID run crying to lawyers when similar things happened to them. Doesn't mean all Christians are crybabies, any more than this woman makes all Muslims unreasonable.

>Nor did I act as an agent provocateur as did the Flying Imams.

Right. But some Christians DID specifically try to cause a huge stink just to make a point. Doesn't mean all Christians are agent provocateurs, any more than this woman makes all Muslims unreasonable.

>The European nations have the right to preserve their respective cultures and ways of
>life, and to defend them from aliens who enter, take benefits, contribute little or
>nothing (except more mouths to feed), demand that the country change to fit THEIR
>ways, and riot whenever anyone tries to call them out on it.

Sure they do. And the US has the right to preserve their culture, and defend it from bigots who try to single out minorities to attack.

So the city of Frankfurt, by preserving the civil rights of everyone (including this foolish woman), is making an attack?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,112]

>You're comparing a handful of pathetic, silly people (to whom no one would pay any
>attention at all if they weren't screaming and making fools out of themselves [like the
>gays]) to a tidal wave of hatred that is washing over Europe.

Yes, there is a tidal wave of hatred washing over both Europe and the US. Much of it is directed against Muslims. There is also a wave of hatred against gays here in the US and abroad. Much less of a problem than the hatred of Muslims, but a problem nonetheless.

Both problems can be solved by (you guessed it) tolerance. Muslims have to learn to tolerate living in societies that are not like the ones they are used to. Others in those countries have to learn to tolerate Muslims who don't dress or act like the people they're used to. Any solution that ignores either side of the problem will fail.

>And if the Europeans want to preserve their cultural identity, why they're racist
>bigots! Down! Bad!

If they take the same route as the KKK did to preserve their "cultural identity," damn right they are racist bigots. Fortunately, most are not.

[Guest]

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Both problems can be solved by (you guessed it) tolerance. Muslims have to learn to tolerate living in societies that are not like the ones they are used to. Others in those countries have to learn to tolerate Muslims who don't dress or act like the people they're used to. Any solution that ignores either side of the problem will fail.

I agree.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,112]

>So the city of Frankfurt, by preserving the civil rights of everyone (including this
>foolish woman), is making an attack?

?? No. These are attacks:

==========
Use violence against Muslims, says Van Gogh's former mentor
Sunday, March 25, 2007

. . .

As Jansen sees it, the Netherlands is too indulgent to violence of fundamentalist Muslims. But he also suggests that moderate Muslims, too, strive after an Islamic society in the Netherlands. They intentionally make use of the radicals to enforce their wishes, according to the Arabist.

"We do not realise that the threat of violence, and violence itself, can only be stopped through the controlled and cunning use of violence". The Dutch secret service (AIVD) should get a special department "that gets its hands dirty, if need be".

Jansen is an authority on the Arabic language and the Koran. Theo van Gogh, who was murdered by a Muslim terrorist in 2004, employed him as his tutor on Islam.
==========

Muslim Cab Driver stabbed in New York City
Michael Enright Arrested On Hate Crime Charge

A man has been arrested on charges he repeatedly stabbed a New York City cab driver after asking the driver if he was Muslim and the driver said yes.

Police arrested Michael Enright Tuesday night on charges including attempted murder as a hate crime. He was expected to appear in court in Manhattan on Wednesday.
==========

[sundevil777 102]

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And yet some people still support many of the same things the Westboro Baptists do - the immorality of homosexuality, the denial of gay rights

Quite right, there is a whole lot of such intolerance in countries with names such as 'the Islamic republic of blah blah', the leadership of the Muslim faith in general. The big difference from the Westboro nuts is that Muslim intolerance and hatred is sanctioned by the political and religious leadership (actually the same leadership). That same type of leadership does have a significant presence in our American mosques. Nut job Christian leaders cannot even come close to having the same potential for doing harm.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,112]

>Nut job Christian leaders cannot even come close to having the same potential for
>doing harm.

Hmm. Given that Christian leaders start wars that kill millions, as opposed to Muslim leaders who incite terrorists to kill thousands, I'd have to disagree.

[Guest]

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>So the city of Frankfurt, by preserving the civil rights of everyone (including this
>foolish woman), is making an attack?

?? No. These are attacks:

==========
Use violence against Muslims, says Van Gogh's former mentor
Sunday, March 25, 2007

. . .

As Jansen sees it, the Netherlands is too indulgent to violence of fundamentalist Muslims. But he also suggests that moderate Muslims, too, strive after an Islamic society in the Netherlands. They intentionally make use of the radicals to enforce their wishes, according to the Arabist.

"We do not realise that the threat of violence, and violence itself, can only be stopped through the controlled and cunning use of violence". The Dutch secret service (AIVD) should get a special department "that gets its hands dirty, if need be".

Jansen is an authority on the Arabic language and the Koran. Theo van Gogh, who was murdered by a Muslim terrorist in 2004, employed him as his tutor on Islam.
==========

Muslim Cab Driver stabbed in New York City
Michael Enright Arrested On Hate Crime Charge

A man has been arrested on charges he repeatedly stabbed a New York City cab driver after asking the driver if he was Muslim and the driver said yes.

Police arrested Michael Enright Tuesday night on charges including attempted murder as a hate crime. He was expected to appear in court in Manhattan on Wednesday.
==========

The irony of it all (Theo van Gogh's death was at the hands of islamofascist whackos).

Tolerance at all costs - no matter what?

By your definition, we should allow members of the Church of Satan to sacrifice human infants. Anything less, and we're intolerant.

Yes, this is ad absurdum, but the issue is this: where are the limits to tolerance? Who decides? Tolerance killed thousands on 9/11 - do we allow such atrocities in the name of tolerance? Today it's a funny dress, tomorrow it's Sharia. The time to stop it is NOW, and the Germans know it.

mh
.

edit for grammar

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,112]

>Tolerance at all costs - no matter what?

No. Tolerance just means acceptance of other people's differing beliefs. It doesn't mean letting them burn your house down because they like fire.

>By your definition, we should allow members of the Church of Satan to sacrifice
>human infants.

No, murder is a crime.

>Yes, this is ad absurdum, but the issue is this: where are the limits to tolerance?

Harm to others.

>Who decides?

We do.

>Tolerance killed thousands on 9/11 . . .

That would be intolerance. Do you really think the terrorists went to their deaths chanting "we accept all that the US has to offer?" Or do you think they wished to destroy those they hated?

>Today it's a funny dress, tomorrow it's Sharia. The time to stop it is NOW . .

Ah. So when will you start campaigning against people wearing crosses, that ancient religious symbol of torture and murder? And of course protesting any culture that does not allow both women AND men to bare their chests. Forcing women to wear traditional clothing based on religious mores today, Sharia tomorrow and all that.

Or are you more tolerant of those things?