Do you want to kill people legally?

[Arvoitus 1]

Well then you should become a cop.

Watch the video from:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/18/utah-video-police-kill-man-drug-raid_n_810420.html

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The local prosecutor has deemed the killing justified

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Local police forces are able to keep property they seize in drug raids, often without the necessity of a conviction, creating a perverse incentive to reinvest in military equipment and carry out additional raids.

So cops are basically barbarians running legal looting raids to steal people's property.

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The Salt Lake Tribune reported that the main focus of the police investigation had been Blair's roommate, who police said in the application for the warrant would destroy evidence if they weren't given authority to carry out a "no-knock" raid. But police were aware that his roommate had moved out.

Police tried to detain Blair so that he wouldn't be in the house when it was raided, but pulled over the wrong person. Despite that mistake, and despite the knowledge that the roommate had moved out, the raid on Blair was still carried out. It was hastily planned, reported the Tribune, diverting from protocol. Burnett, who shot Blair, told investigators that it is "absolutely not our standard" to carry out such a raid with as little planning as was done, according to the Tribune.

It was so hastily carried out, in fact, that police forgot the warrant. According to the Tribune, in the video it obtained an officer can be heard asking: "Did somebody grab a copy of the warrant off my desk?"

Legal executions raids being run by cops and some people want to deny citizens from having ways to defend themselves against government tyranny like this?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[Kennedy 0]

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Do you want to kill people legally?
Well then you should become a cop.

[shakes head] I don't know why I'm bothering. I guess I'm just that bored right now.

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The local prosecutor has deemed the killing justified

Yeah, they tend to do that when officers are serving a warrant and someone inside threatens them with a deadly weapon.

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Local police forces are able to keep property they seize in drug raids, often without the necessity of a conviction,

Take it up with the state legislature, the courts, and the local government. The police department doesn't just up and decide to start taking private property without all the other invovled parties.

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creating a perverse incentive to reinvest in military equipment and carry out additional raids

Try reading a periodical that reports the facts and allows readers to form their own conculsions. Unless you need Ms Huffington to do your thinking for you that is.

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So cops are basically barbarians running legal looting raids to steal people's property.

So basically, you hate law enforcement. Congratualtions. Back here in the real world, that's not how things work.

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authority to carry out a "no-knock" raid.

Did you even watch the video? They knocked and yelled "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT! POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT!" before making entry. The guy came at law enforcement with a golf club held over his shoulder. I can't say I'm all that surprised. And anyone questioning why rural areas need cooperative units focused on drugs has obviously never lived ina rural area with a meth problem.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[DiverMike 5]

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Yeah, they tend to do that when officers are serving a warrant and someone inside threatens them with a deadly weapon.

The main point/question in this discussion is, "Was excessive force used?". The golf club in question doesn't even look like a fairway wood or a driver. It is highly unlikely a short iron could cause death by being thrown at a cop in full protective gear, so it is a stretch to argue the cop didn't escalate by shooting the guy from several feet away.

Don't get me wrong - I would rather have 100 meth addicts killed by cops using excessive force than having 1 cop killed by a meth addict with a golf club. This cop screwed up, but the druggie should have never brought a golf club to a gun fight. That started the chain of events. The cop, however, should not be let off scott free. IMHO, due to his lack of good judgement he should be fired.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Amazon 7]

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Do you want to kill people legally?
Well then you should become a cop.

[shakes head] I don't know why I'm bothering. I guess I'm just that bored right now.

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The local prosecutor has deemed the killing justified

Yeah, they tend to do that when officers are serving a warrant and someone inside threatens them with a deadly weapon.

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Local police forces are able to keep property they seize in drug raids, often without the necessity of a conviction,

Take it up with the state legislature, the courts, and the local government. The police department doesn't just up and decide to start taking private property without all the other invovled parties.

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creating a perverse incentive to reinvest in military equipment and carry out additional raids

Try reading a periodical that reports the facts and allows readers to form their own conculsions. Unless you need Ms Huffington to do your thinking for you that is.

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So cops are basically barbarians running legal looting raids to steal people's property.

So basically, you hate law enforcement. Congratualtions. Back here in the real world, that's not how things work.

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authority to carry out a "no-knock" raid.

Did you even watch the video? They knocked and yelled "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT! POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT!" before making entry. The guy came at law enforcement with a golf club held over his shoulder. I can't say I'm all that surprised. And anyone questioning why rural areas need cooperative units focused on drugs has obviously never lived ina rural area with a meth problem.

I have to agree with you here... anyone swinginging a golf club over their shoulder, just needs killin... its the humane thing to do

[normiss 896]

Given that the guy made no move towards the cops, I'm going to have to disagree.
A death over weed.
That the roomie had.
That had knowingly moved out.
jebus.

[Kennedy 0]

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The main point/question in this discussion is, "Was excessive force used?". The golf club in question doesn't even look like a fairway wood or a driver. It is highly unlikely a short iron could cause death by being thrown at a cop in full protective gear, so it is a stretch to argue the cop didn't escalate by shooting the guy from several feet away.

FYI - a common definition of deadly weapon is

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any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or serious bodily injury, or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner in which it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or serious bodily injury.

Serious bodily harm (interchangable with great bodily harm) is defined as

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bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death, or that causes serious permanent disfigurement, coma, a permanent or protracted condition that causes extreme pain, or permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or that results in prolonged hospitalization.

By virtue of the warrant, officers had a right (legal requirement, actually) to enter the house and conduct a search for the items listed in the warrant. A gold club, whether it be a putter a nine iron or a big bertha, can be a deadly weapon. When a person raises it over their shoulder and comes at an officer like that, it is a dealy weapon. Is it possible the officer could have safely concluded the incident wihtout shooting the resident? Yes, it's possible. But was it reasonable for an officer serving a search warrant to respond to a brandished deadly weapon with hisown deadly force? Yes, it is, and the prosecutor agreed.

However, is the officer going to be raked over the coals in civil court? You betcha. I don't know how a judge or jury will find, but the most damning fact is that (according to reporters at least) the officer said the man was not moving towards him. If it's true that the officer said that, and if it's true that the man wasn't moving, then that is going to be a very difficult trial for the department.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Again, while I'm not saying the officer was actually right, some of the comments here concern me.

Watching the video found here on YouTube it looks to me like the guy was coming around the corner, and he was actually moving towards the officers until he was shot, then he stumbles back into teh wall.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[marks2065 0]

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Again, while I'm not saying the officer was actually right, some of the comments here concern me.

Watching the video found here on YouTube it looks to me like the guy was coming around the corner, and he was actually moving towards the officers until he was shot, then he stumbles back into teh wall.

tough position to be in but I would have to side with the officer based on what they usually have to deal with. the problem is the civil courts, they should not be held financially responsible for doing their jobs.

[normiss 896]

Being violently awakened in the middle of the night would tend to lead to a confused suspect.
Not everyone awakes and immediately bows down.
Telling him to put the "weapon" down while he was clearly safely out of range might have been a logical start.
We all know how deadly those roommates of small possession criminals can be.

[billvon 3,116]

>Do you want to kill people legally?

Join the military!

===============
AINSWORTH: Come on, Private. We're making up a search party.

PRIVATE: Better than staying at home, isn't this, sir? Eh? I mean, at home, if you kill someone, they arrest you. Here, they give you a gun and show you what to do, sir. I mean, I killed fifteen of those buggers, sir. Now, at home, they'd hang me! Here, they'll give me a fucking medal, sir!
=================

[Kennedy 0]

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kawisixer01 0]

Hmmm you live in a seedy neighborhood and you are a know drug dealer. Could those guys busting down your door be a group of tweakers or gangbangers yelling "police-search warrant" to get you to let your guard down so that they can get into the house and rob you? Could the people that quickly yelled "police search warrant" be someone coming to attack you and kill you over a bad drug deal?
This tactic has been used by gangbangers and robbers to get people to let their guard down and let people in, only to be victimized. The other problem is how many times have you heard of cops getting the wrong address? So now lets change the scenario and say the cops got the wrong address and are knocking down the wrong person's door with a no knock warrant. They now have shot someone that was simply half awake that may not have heard the warrant claim and is simply protecting his family or property.
It's doubtful this guy clearly heard the "police search-warrant" through a door and most likely while he was asleep. What is likely is that he woke up to some muffled yelling and his door getting busted in so he did exactly what 90% of us would do and responded by trying to protect his property with the assumption that he was about to be robbed or victimized. I know if I woke up to the sound of people fucking around my house, muffled yelling, and then my door coming down I'd likely respond with a pistol or shot gun in my hand.
I realize the cops are trying to work with the advantage of surprise, because typically it's easy to take someone into custody when they are half asleep and unprepared for your visit. But they also have to realize that people by nature are going to try to protect their property and may not clearly hear you making the claim of your warrant, and also may not know for sure and have no way to confirm that you are actually the cops. I relly think it's time to examine other tactics than to knock people's door down in the middle of the night and "hope" everything goes smoothly, and "Hope" they hear and comprehend that it's the cops at the door and not somoene trying to victimize them.

[Kennedy 0]

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Hmmm you live in a seedy neighborhood and you are a know drug dealer.

You can stop there. Anyone doing that is committing felonies, and if they draw the negative attention of other felons, that's their problem.

The rest of you post is hypotheticals and not worth a hill of beans.

The facts in this case are that law enforcement drew a warrant, knock-and-announced, and forced entry. While entering and shouting "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!" a man came at them with a deadly weapon. Officers responded as trained. End result: one tweaker pot head dead, one lawsuit coming. No surprises.

What do you want them to do, sit down for tea and cakes? Think about it- how long does it take you to cross a tiny room and hit something with a club?

And if you want to say he was half asleep, all I can say is he was up and moving quick before the officers got five feet into the residence.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[david3 0]

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Hmmm you live in a seedy neighborhood and you are a know drug dealer.

You can stop there. Anyone doing that is committing felonies, and if they draw the negative attention of other felons, that's their problem.

The rest of you post is hypotheticals and not worth a hill of beans.

The facts in this case are that law enforcement drew a warrant, knock-and-announced, and forced entry. While entering and shouting "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!" a man came at them with a deadly weapon. Officers responded as trained. End result: one tweaker pot head dead, one lawsuit coming. No surprises.

What do you want them to do, sit down for tea and cakes? Think about it- how long does it take you to cross a tiny room and hit something with a club?

And if you want to say he was half asleep, all I can say is he was up and moving quick before the officers got five feet into the residence.

If he was up and moving quick I agree, I just don't see that. Doesn't mean he wasn't, i just don't see it from the video.

[doughboyshred 0]

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Hmmm you live in a seedy neighborhood and you are a know drug dealer.

You can stop there. Anyone doing that is committing felonies, and if they draw the negative attention of other felons, that's their problem.

The rest of you post is hypotheticals and not worth a hill of beans.

The facts in this case are that law enforcement drew a warrant, knock-and-announced, and forced entry. While entering and shouting "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!" a man came at them with a deadly weapon. Officers responded as trained. End result: one tweaker pot head dead, one lawsuit coming. No surprises.

What do you want them to do, sit down for tea and cakes? Think about it- how long does it take you to cross a tiny room and hit something with a club?

And if you want to say he was half asleep, all I can say is he was up and moving quick before the officers got five feet into the residence.

So you put less value on the life of someone that uses drugs than you do on others?

How's the view up on that horse?

[normiss 896]

So you missed the part about the warrant was for a roommate.
Who the police knew had moved.
Is this guy guilty by association?
I know people that are currently holding weed, should I be served an aggressive take down warrant?

[Kennedy 0]

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So you put less value on the life of someone that uses drugs than you do on others?

How's the view up on that horse?

No, but we weren't talking about users in his example, we were talking about known dealers. However, as with dealers, users (such as in the case in this thread) put themselves in a position where their life is more likely to be taken than if they were sitting at home drinking water. I didn't say I value the life less, and I don't, but that doesn't mean I should be surprised when the predictable happens.

And I'm going riding this weekend in an area that I've never visited before, so I'll let you know how the view is.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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So you missed the part about the warrant was for a roommate.
Who the police knew had moved.
Is this guy guilty by association?
I know people that are currently holding weed, should I be served an aggressive take down warrant?

No, you missed the part where this was a search warrant, so it was for the residence. That fact that the investigation focused on one resdient more than another is irrelevant. If the guy had sat still and acted right, he would have held misdemeanor weed and paraphernalia charges at most. Instead he came out swinging a golf club.

And unless you live with those people you know currently holding weed, you have very little chance of unpleasant police contact due to their weed.

You also place far too much faith in the slanted piece of trash article. i was going to call it a rag, but this is the huffington post. It's a blog that mascarades as a newspaper.

edit to add:
Try these
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700066160/Roy-man-shot-and-killed-during-police-drug-raid.html
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50304398-76/blair-drug-roy-police.html.csp#

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Craterpond 0]

Sorry, but I see a gun in his hand...I'd like to see it higher quility! But in that clip, between 49 and 52 seconds, I see a hand gun, then it fly's out of his grip as he is going down.....

[normiss 896]

Given the additional details in the 'non rag' sources you provided, I stand by my initial comments.
He was a poor loser with a drug addiction.
Murdering him was not necessary - even the cops say he wasn't advancing.
It also sounds like no drugs were found.
Our 'war on drugs' is still a waste of time, resources, money, and lives.
Sad story really.

[Craterpond 0]

OK, after reading more articals, I can't help but call it a bad shoot, the officer behind the gun needs to lose his badge,and face manslaughter charges...

[airdvr 210]

I find it laughable how often people want to point out the failings of the police.

I figure there are about 1,000,000 LEO's in the US. If only half of them interact with the public on a daily basis that's 500,000 times a cop could screw up. They're human. Someone has a golf club and is threatening them with it they take the person down. Maybe they didn't mean to kill them but shit happens in the heat of the moment. Don't want a cop to shoot you then don't come out the door with your 5 iron. We need a icon.

Kennedy...don't waste your thoughts. Smile and know someday the OP is going to desperately need the assistance of the very individuals he so thoroughly despises. I wonder what choice he'll make.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[doughboyshred 0]

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I find it laughable how often people want to point out the failings of the police.

I figure there are about 1,000,000 LEO's in the US. If only half of them interact with the public on a daily basis that's 500,000 times a cop could screw up. They're human. Someone has a golf club and is threatening them with it they take the person down. Maybe they didn't mean to kill them but shit happens in the heat of the moment. Don't want a cop to shoot you then don't come out the door with your 5 iron. We need a icon.

Kennedy...don't waste your thoughts. Smile and know someday the OP is going to desperately need the assistance of the very individuals he so thoroughly despises. I wonder what choice he'll make.

Your ignorance is appalling.
Go here and educate yourself: http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/

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John Adams
64 years old
Lebanon, Tennessee
October, 2000
Shot to death during a SWAT drug raid while watching TV. The house didn’t match the description on the warrant.

Rev. Jonathan Ayers
28 years old
Toccoa, Georgia
September, 2009
After meeting with a parishioner who was under surveillance by drug cops, the pastor went to a Convenience store ATM. Coming out, he was confronted by men waving guns. He didn’t know they were undercover cops, and was shot to death while driving off, fearing for his life.

Xavier Bennett
8 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 1991
Xavier was accidentally shot to death by officers in a pre-dawn drug raid during a gunfight with one of Xavier’s relatives.

Delbert Bonnar
57 years old
Belpre, Ohio
October, 1998
Shot 8 times by police in drug raid. They were looking for his son.

Veronica Bowers
35 years old
Charity Bowers

7 months old
In the air over Peru
April, 2001
As part of a long-standing arrangement to stop drug shipments, U.S. government tracking provided the information for the Peruvian Air Force to mistakenly shoot down a Cessna plane carrying missionaries. Killed in the incident were Roni Bowers, a missionary with the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, and her daughter, Charity. In 2008, a new report surfaced indicating widespread problems with the shoot-down program that had been withheld from Congress by the CIA.

In no way to I despise LEOs. I am extremely opposed to the situation that has been created with the drug war, where innocent people and petty drug users are regularly murdered by cops.

[champu 1]

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No, you missed the part where this was a search warrant, so it was for the residence. That fact that the investigation focused on one resdient more than another is irrelevant. If the guy had sat still and acted right, he would have held misdemeanor weed and paraphernalia charges at most. Instead he came out swinging a golf club.

Pretending, for a moment, that the victim's actions were understandable if not advisable, do you feel there are any lessons to be learned on the side of the LEOs?

Obviously the officers didn't get into their cruisers/van that evening hoping to shoot a guy, and I don't envy either the second guessing of oneself or the rationalization required to avoid the second guessing of oneself that Sgt. Burnett has to go through. It goes without saying, though, that Blair has it worse. So other than suggesting that people not be defensive when their front door is kicked in, how else might the outcome of this raid been improved?

[Kennedy 0]

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In no way to I despise LEOs. I am extremely opposed to the situation that has been created with the drug war,

Now why would anyone think you despised law enforcement?

Oh yeah:

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Do you want to kill people legally?
Well then you should become a cop.

So cops are basically barbarians running legal looting raids to steal people's property.

Legal executions raids being run by cops

where innocent people and petty drug users are regularly murdered by cops.

Comments like that might have something to do with it.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*