mnealtx 0 #76 January 10, 2011 Quote>You really think that a CGI Cross Hair over a picture, on a website, that >he probably never even visited, facilitated the shooting of the >Congresswoman? To reiterate: Gun-target analogies and talk about violent/armed overthrow does NOT cause such incidents. They do contribute to an atmosphere that encourages it. Hopefully this will be a wake-up call to the people who advocate such things. They bring a knife, we bring a gun Get in their faces Punch back twice as hard I want people to be angry Punish our enemies Hand to hand combat bombthrowers / hostage takers - Barack ObamaMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #77 January 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteFine. Just as long as there's no double-standard applied to the Moozlim who shot-up Ft. Hood. Deal? What would the double standard be? We don't know enough about the man to say more than he was just some crazy. We know a far sight more about Hasan, and we knew it before he started live target practice. QuoteHasan is an American-born Muslim of Palestinian descent. Internal Army reports indicate officers within the Army were aware of Hasan's tendencies toward radical Islam since 2005. Additionally, investigations before and after the shooting discovered e-mail communications between Hasan and Yemen-based cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who quickly declared Hasan a hero, as "fighting against the U.S. army is an Islamic duty". After communications between the two were forwarded to FBI terrorism task forces in 2008, they determined that Hasan was not a threat prior to the shooting and that his questions to al-Awlaki were consistent with medical research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting Sorry for the Wiki...it was the best I could do on short notice. I'm disappointed you need to give yourself wiggle room, and a non-answer answer, instead of just a straight-up answer. Ft Hood shooting: It's very important to not jump to conclusions, we don't know anything yet. Arizona shooting: It's all due to Palin and Tea Party!!! That sort of double standard, you mean?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #78 January 10, 2011 An overt threat is an overt threat. Every state in the US already have laws criminalizing overt threats. I'm OK with that. It's also more recently (w/i past 20 or 30 yrs) been made a Federal crime to make an overt threat against the President. I'm OK, with that; and in theory I'd also be OK with making overt threats against a member of Congress a Federal crime. But the language of Brady's bill is so broad and vague - beyond the scope of "overt threats" - that I think a majority of Federal judges would rule at least parts of it unconstitutional. "Incitement to violence (or riot, etc.)" statutes (and there have been plenty of them) have always been on shaky Constitutional grounds in the U.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #79 January 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnd now another slant on taking advantage of a tragity http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/136895-dem-planning-bill-that-would-outlaw-threatening-lawmakers Rep. Robert Brady (D-Pa.) reportedly plans to introduce legislation that would make it a federal crime to use language or symbols that could be perceived as threatening or inciting violence against a federal official or member of Congress. Sounds pretty knee-jerk. You either make an illegal threat against someone or you don't. "Could be perceived..." is bs. And I don't care what the victim's job is. We're not a monarchy, despite allusions by the Kennedy's, Bush's, et al. Obama, Brady, Boehner, and Giffords all deserve the same protections against threats that the rest of us deserve, no more, no less. They may have a security team that takes those threats more seriously, as harm to them is more disruptive to society than harm to us common folk, but the legality of threatening someone should not hinge on what that person's job is. Blues, Dave We agree here There are now some saying we need bring back the fairness doctrine Yet all that is known that this nut listened to was hard rock"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #80 January 10, 2011 Quote An overt threat is an overt threat. Every state in the US already have laws criminalizing overt threats. I'm OK with that. It's also more recently (w/i past 20 or 30 yrs) been made a Federal crime to make an overt threat against the President. I'm OK, with that; and in theory I'd also be OK with making overt threats against a member of Congress a Federal crime. But the language of Brady's bill is so broad and vague - beyond the scope of "overt threats" - that I think a majority of Federal judges would rule at least parts of it unconstitutional. "Incitement to violence (or riot, etc.)" statutes (and there have been plenty of them) have always been on shaky Constitutional grounds in the U.S. We agree here too And to the point. I did not exect anyone here (nearly anyone) to take a different stance and if I implied that forgive me I was however trying to point out the manipulation of the polititions to try and make political hay from such a tragity. Hell, look at news week today with the story hoping that Obama can blame this on the tea party just as clinton hung the Oklahoma bombing on conservatives Those who are doing that are shit heads"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #81 January 10, 2011 Blame others, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment ... classic."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #82 January 10, 2011 Quote was however trying to point out the manipulation of the polititions to try and make political hay from such a tragity. Hell, look at news week today with the story hoping that Obama can blame this on the tea party just as clinton hung the Oklahoma bombing on conservatives As I discussed up-thread, if it's unfair to paint this shooting or the OKC bombing on the community of conservatives, (and recall that OKC wasn't done by "loonies", it was done by sane, fanatical terrorists), then it's equally unfair to paint the Ft. Hood shooting (which was done by a loony) on the community of Muslims - as many people tried to do. I tried to get the OP to agree to that as a fair proposition; but unfortunately he did a little two-step instead. IMO, he missed a good opportunity to display intellectual consistency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #83 January 10, 2011 QuoteQuote was however trying to point out the manipulation of the polititions to try and make political hay from such a tragity. Hell, look at news week today with the story hoping that Obama can blame this on the tea party just as clinton hung the Oklahoma bombing on conservatives As I discussed up-thread, if it's unfair to paint this shooting or the OKC bombing on the community of conservatives, (and recall that OKC wasn't done by "loonies", it was done by sane, fanatical terrorists), then it's equally unfair to paint the Ft. Hood shooting (which was done by a loony) on the community of Muslims - as many people tried to do. I tried to get the OP to agree to that as a fair proposition; but unfortunately he did a little two-step instead. IMO, he missed a good opportunity to display intellectual consistency. I understand and agree with your point but, a few charcterization are not correct The OCB was done by a man who was mad at the gov for burning of the Branch Dividians He stated as much The Ft Hood killings were again done by one man. However, this is a case where, for the reasons he seemed to have used, are not uncommon or rare. And I do not speak of Muslims. I speak of those who support radical Islamic verse and tactic. But in general, I agree that painting with a wide brush is both wrong and is not constructive"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #84 January 10, 2011 QuoteQuote was however trying to point out the manipulation of the polititions to try and make political hay from such a tragity. Hell, look at news week today with the story hoping that Obama can blame this on the tea party just as clinton hung the Oklahoma bombing on conservatives As I discussed up-thread, if it's unfair to paint this shooting or the OKC bombing on the community of conservatives, (and recall that OKC wasn't done by "loonies", it was done by sane, fanatical terrorists), then it's equally unfair to paint the Ft. Hood shooting (which was done by a loony) on the community of Muslims - as many people tried to do. I tried to get the OP to agree to that as a fair proposition; but unfortunately he did a little two-step instead. IMO, he missed a good opportunity to display intellectual consistency. Why are you claiming that the Ft Hood guy had diminished capacity? What made him a "Looney"?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #85 January 10, 2011 >What made him a "Looney"? The evaluation of his peers and professional psychiatrists: ============== Attendees of these meetings reportedly included the Walter Reed chief of psychiatry, the chairman of the USUHS Psychiatry Department, two assistant chairs of the USUHS Psychiatry Department (one of whom was the director of Hasan's psychiatry fellowship), another psychiatrist, and the director of the Walter Reed psychiatric residency program. According to NPR, fellow students and faculty were strongly troubled by Hasan's behavior, which they described as "disconnected," "aloof," "paranoid," "belligerent," and "schizoid." ============== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #86 January 10, 2011 Quote>What made him a "Looney"? The evaluation of his peers and professional psychiatrists: ============== Attendees of these meetings reportedly included the Walter Reed chief of psychiatry, the chairman of the USUHS Psychiatry Department, two assistant chairs of the USUHS Psychiatry Department (one of whom was the director of Hasan's psychiatry fellowship), another psychiatrist, and the director of the Walter Reed psychiatric residency program. According to NPR, fellow students and faculty were strongly troubled by Hasan's behavior, which they described as "disconnected," "aloof," "paranoid," "belligerent," and "schizoid." ============== His actions and history don't make him sound crazy/loonie/insane/whatever - he just seems to be a bad and obnoxious person. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #87 January 10, 2011 >His actions and history don't make him sound crazy/loonie/insane/whatever . . Agreed. But when Walter Reed psychiatrists call someone ""paranoid" and "schizoid" - they probably saw parts of him that we didn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #88 January 10, 2011 Quote>His actions and history don't make him sound crazy/loonie/insane/whatever . . Agreed. But when Walter Reed psychiatrists call someone ""paranoid" and "schizoid" - they probably saw parts of him that we didn't. agree, though lately, psych terms are delivered pretty loosely - anyone can call anyone 'unstable' today. He had to plan this and anticipate the fallout, etc etc etc. this guy just sounded like a jerk that wanted to screw with people at bad moments and get negative attention flowing. evil is likely a better description than crazy (and yes, many would make the first a subset of the 2nd - I don't.) mission accomplished here ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #89 January 10, 2011 QuoteSo what we end up with is the rather untennable situation we have today. Hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people living on our streets most in squalor, 1/4 of our prison population living in a hellish existence that is little better, and a misery quotient that lessens our society. They really should pull themselves up by their bootstraps ... isn't that the American way??? Lets call it the Lawrocket conservative law of intended consequences after the removal of those pesky social programs that were desined to help Americans, which is SOOOO less sexy than spending a few more billion to kill non americans. In the mean time, we have 100,000 more Cho's, Hinkleys and Loghners just ticking their way thru life ready to go off at the drop of a tin foil hat. This is something upon which we can agree. Reagan's move was bad. I can find things that he did were bad, like I can find things I like about Clinton and Obama.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #90 January 10, 2011 Quote>His actions and history don't make him sound crazy/loonie/insane/whatever . . Agreed. But when Walter Reed psychiatrists call someone ""paranoid" and "schizoid" - they probably saw parts of him that we didn't. You could find those traits in anyone if you look hard enough,I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #91 January 10, 2011 >You could find those traits in anyone if you look hard enough. Agreed. But again, when Walter Reed psychiatrists call a fellow worker "paranoid" and "schizoid" - it's a bit different than a skydiving instructor on Speaker's Corner saying the same thing. That's not a clinical diagnosis, of course; it just answers your question about why he was considered a looney. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #92 January 10, 2011 Quote>You could find those traits in anyone if you look hard enough. Agreed. But again, when Walter Reed psychiatrists call a fellow worker "paranoid" and "schizoid" - it's a bit different than a skydiving instructor on Speaker's Corner saying the same thing. That's not a clinical diagnosis, of course; it just answers your question about why he was considered a looney. I've been reading some things that say he had applied for military service and had been rejected. I would hope that the results of some of the testing, if his rejection was due to some form of instability, might have made it into some database somewhere. Am I expecting too much? Sometimes it seems all we have to do is look around and you can find these guys if you've got your eyes open.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #93 January 10, 2011 QuoteQuote>You could find those traits in anyone if you look hard enough. Agreed. But again, when Walter Reed psychiatrists call a fellow worker "paranoid" and "schizoid" - it's a bit different than a skydiving instructor on Speaker's Corner saying the same thing. That's not a clinical diagnosis, of course; it just answers your question about why he was considered a looney. I've been reading some things that say he had applied for military service and had been rejected. I would hope that the results of some of the testing, if his rejection was due to some form of instability, might have made it into some database somewhere. Am I expecting too much? Sometimes it seems all we have to do is look around and you can find these guys if you've got your eyes open. From what I've read, it was a failed urinalysis.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #94 January 11, 2011 Quote Blame others, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment ... classic. And you in your infinite bucket of whine feel the need to come and add what I am sure passes as erudition... in that mind of yours.BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #95 January 11, 2011 Quote>You could find those traits in anyone if you look hard enough. Agreed. But again, when Walter Reed psychiatrists call a fellow worker "paranoid" and "schizoid" - it's a bit different than a skydiving instructor on Speaker's Corner saying the same thing. That's not a clinical diagnosis, of course; it just answers your question about why he was considered a looney. I guess my point is a little tin foil hattish, although less so than most off the wall theories. That they put thier creds on the line, yes - but it seems that they may have a bias toward protecting the institution first. That theory assumes that there is something to be gained that the guy "suffered a psychotic break" as opposed to "he became Muslim extremist". I wouldn't count it out.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #96 January 11, 2011 QuoteI've been reading some things that say he had applied for military service and had been rejected. I would hope that the results of some of the testing, if his rejection was due to some form of instability, might have made it into some database somewhere. Am I expecting too much? that's it, we can't fail people that apply to the military - that type of irresponsible elevation of violence cause these deaths. no one is allowed to reject any applicant for any job - period for the children ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #97 January 11, 2011 Quote Quote Blame others, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment ... classic. And you in your infinite bucket of whine feel the need to come and add what I am sure passes as erudition... in that mind of yours.BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA There was no whining. There was only erudition."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #98 January 12, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Blame others, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment ... classic. And you in your infinite bucket of whine feel the need to come and add what I am sure passes as erudition... in that mind of yours.BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA There was no whining. There was only erudition. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA And you added yet another of your usual trite responses that you believe to be erudite... Troll troll troll your churn gently thru the cream.... merrily merrily merrily erudition for you is but a dream BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
