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jclalor

Arizona Congresswoman, shot in the head

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However, if you deny the problem exists, you're just setting yourself up for capricious regulations that might not even work. YOU GUYS are gun experts; figure it out.



the US has a problem with violent crime.

Much of that crime is committed with firearms. Those firearms by and large are not purchased through legal means. Making laws to restrict the availability of firearms will not affect criminals' ability to purchase a firearm. It WILL affect a law abiding citizen's ability to purchase a firearm.

If the intent is to solve the violent crime problem, then we should start with laws that affect those committing the crimes.

If your intent is to remove guns from the population alltogether, then you need to start by changing the constitution.



Increase the sentence for violent gun crime - Exponentially.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Florida seems pretty spot on with that.
10/20/Life.
# Mandates a minimum 10 year prison term for certain felonies, or attempted felonies in which the offender possesses a firearm or destructive device
# Mandates a minimum 20 year prison term when the firearm is discharged
# Mandates a minimum 25 years to LIFE if someone is injured or killed

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Florida seems pretty spot on with that.
10/20/Life.
# Mandates a minimum 10 year prison term for certain felonies, or attempted felonies in which the offender possesses a firearm or destructive device
# Mandates a minimum 20 year prison term when the firearm is discharged
# Mandates a minimum 25 years to LIFE if someone is injured or killed



Could be a a little stronger[:/]
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Serious kennedy, what differs the neo conservatives from any of your countries enemies. We are seing the same rhetoric coming from your country men as some of the worst extremist they are hunting all over the world.

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Serious kennedy, what differs the neo conservatives from any of your countries enemies. We are seing the same rhetoric coming from your country men as some of the worst extremist they are hunting all over the world.



Excpecially that guy they call the POTUS.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Show the stats for the number of guns purchased by people adjudicated mentally deficient or admitted to mental hospitals, thanks.



You know that number would be impossible to acquire, given the number of gun shows, where background checks are not required.
I'm not sure how sales are handled in most States. Here in Missouri, anyone can walk into a gun show and walk out with an arsenal. Not one time being asked any questions. Sales are considered a private transaction. Just that simple to circumvent any restriction a person may have on them.



John likes to spin out this little fantasy about someone walking into a gun store, drooling and muttering, and being sold a gun. How many people do YOU know who would to sell a gun to someone who obviously has mental issues? I can't think of a one - but in kallend's dream world, they're evidently everywhere. Must be that telepathy machine, where he can what their mental state was at the time they bought the gun.

Most states don't require a background check for private sales, that's true - however, that doesn't prevent private sellers from doing the transaction at a gun shop and having a background check run on the purchaser.

None of the above is going to deny a sale to someone that has not already been flagged in the system - THAT is the point that John so conveniently ignores when these threads come up.



We can only hope that a dealer has ethics when it comes to doing gun shows and who they sell to, if it is obvious. Yet, the problem is it is more than likely that someones bad intentions are not obvious. I love going to gun shows and I have seen some of the more extremist gun nuts at shows. Those people are rarely a problem. It's usually the regular person that just seemingly flips out and kill people.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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so how do we determine which people are going to open fire on the crowds? Where's your future crime machine?


Are you saying that the system we have in place now works?


About as well as every other government program ever invented.



Ok, so what's is the plan of the NRA to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people?



Why don't we make firearms as illegal and unavailable as, say, marijuana and cocaine?

That would be brilliant! How come nobody has thought of that?

If nobody had guns, everyone would be happy and get along fine. Like in Rwanda.

Of course, you still might have the odd machete lying around, but nothing is perfect.

If we could only pass enough laws against scary things, everything would be all right. That's the problem - we don't have enough laws. How could we have been so lax? We should keep passing laws until everything is perfect - it's so obvious.

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Winsor, I expect the simplistic comeback from the likes of some here, but not you. You are one of the brightest and erudite minds here, yet, for all your knowledge and wisdom you only seem to be able to see black and white on this issue.

I was hoping for better.

I never suggested making firearms as illegal as cocaine. I never suggested a total nation-wide ban "Like in Rwanda."

I'm asking for a workable solution to the problem of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people. By all accounts, even the NRA is for that as a general goal, yet the current system is badly broken.

How would you actually fix it?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Winsor, I expect the simplistic comeback from the likes of some here, but not you. You are one of the brightest and erudite minds here, yet, for all your knowledge and wisdom you only seem to be able to see black and white on this issue.

I was hoping for better.

I never suggested making firearms as illegal as cocaine. I never suggested a total nation-wide ban "Like in Rwanda."

I'm asking for a workable solution to the problem of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people. By all accounts, even the NRA is for that as a general goal, yet the current system is badly broken.

How would you actually fix it?



I think winsor was being intentionally absurd. But really the only solutions are

(a) Ban and door-to-door confiscation. --Most effective. The only "solution" that will work. Direct assault on the 2nd Amendment.

(b) Tax the everlovin' dogpoop out of everything that has to do with firearms. --Won't solve the "problem" but the gov't could use the money. This would likely be the remedy with the greatest chance of being implemented. End run around the 2nd Amendment.

(c) Criminalize the the transfer of a gun to anyone who doesn't meet a certain arbitrary "profile". --Not enough room in the jails. Too much room for abuse and ultimate tyranny. This would eventually morph into only "carefully selected" (by who?) citizens may have a gun. Again, unconstitutional once a person is denied his rights because of someone else's arbitrary black-listing of him without due process.

(d) Vigorously prosecute crimes involving firearms. --Makes the most sense but any incidents that occur would increase more calls to "do something" and create more political fodder to spread about. Also, charging that the wide range of social/economic conditions across the country would place one group more "at risk" for prosecution than another. (Not really his fault! His condition, and suppression by "the man" made him do it!) In other words, business as usual.

(e) Another suggestion?

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The problem is that there is no simple answer to makin things better. Because both sides of the argument fight so hard, we tend to come up with compromises.

(1) You have to define what a loony is. If you goal is to keep guns away from loonies, you have to define your goal before trying to find ways to reach it. The current definition by law is anyone who has been committed to a mental health facility judged incompetent or is suffering chemical dependency/addiction.

(2) You have to devise a way to determine who fits your definition of loony. Examples include requiring psych evals for evrery purchase and quarterly for owners, fixing the professor's telepathy timemachine that some mean old right-winger nutjob broke, or check the system for the definition in number 1.

(3) You have to devise a way to keep guns away from people who have been determined by number 2 to fit your definition in number 1. Since guns are easily available, and relatively easy to make, and easily replaced by other tools, this is even more difficult that numbers 1 and 2.

disclaimer: as used above, "you" is meant in general, not directed at any poster. It could easily be replaced with "we" or "a person wishing to improve the system."
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Honestly, I don't know why the professor is so caught up with guns that he turnedthis into a gun thread. I've alway thought is was far more important to focus on the person, and on the crime, than on the tool used to commit the crime.

If this nutjob (who seems to have left wing ideology, if not motivation, to go along with his psychoses) had killed six people and injured a dozen more with a knife, or by plowing into them with a motor vehicle, or by strapping on an explosive vest and blowing himself up, we'd be talking about the treatment he needed, the troubles in his head, and the tragedy. I don't think we'd be talking about banning knives, SUVs, or Joe inadequate the BATFE and bomb laws are.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Fort Hood: "Well, we know that he shouted 'Allahu Akbar', but we shouldn't speculate as to his motive - it's too early in the story."

Today: "This is all the fault of the Tea Party and Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle. All their fault."

A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on it's shoes. - Mark Twain



The TRUTH is that (s)he is a nutter and (s)he had a guncar.

Can you name any other developed industrialized nation where nutters have such easy access to gunscars?


http://www.injuryhelpline.com/index.rwl?category=news§ion=wrongful+death&article=Car+hits+Maryland+street+race+crowd+and+killed+eight+and+injured+at+least+five&id=4877
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20101019_Murder_charges_for_woman_who_plowed_car_into_crowd.html
http://www.fox17online.com/news/fox17-bar-fight-hit-and-run-police-standoff-mar06,0,5285759.story

Stop playing the ball, start playing the player.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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My guess is their experience so far.
Banning is not a workable solution.



If a blanket ban for all isn't a workable solution, then what is?

Better come up with it yourselves, because I can almost guarantee people are sitting around tonight that think this is their excuse to put one in place.

There simply HAS to be a better way than what we have now.

However, if you deny the problem exists, you're just setting yourself up for capricious regulations that might not even work. YOU GUYS are gun experts; figure it out.



I been reading through this thread this morning and I am surprised the direction stays the same
Time to change it

Guns and gun ownership and sales are not the problem
People are
Some here would take more freedoms from others to give themselves a false sense of being more safe. When in reality they have only lost more freedoms

This nut case could have driven a car into the crowd and killed people too. Gonna take away our keys?

People kill people

Cause if guns kill people I have a whole bunch of defectgive ones in my safe

This is a tragic event

So was 911.

And I think there was a bunch of knee jerk responces that occured that you still do not agree with. Correct?

Make gun owenership illeagal

The nutters and criminals are sure to turn in theirs dont you think?


No
The problem is much much bigger than guns

It has more to do with the direction of this country
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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No
The problem is much much bigger than guns

It has more to do with the direction of this country





...and the overall solution is so simple, yet unfathomably complex.

Enforce the law.



CBS this moring reported he had purchased a Glock semi auto legally about a month ago.

So, to respond to kallend, yes, there is (or at least seems to be) a problem with this guy being able to purchase a gun (not a private sale either kallend). So how does a country or a state identify guys like this and keep him from getting a gun without stepping on the rights on non-nutters?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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"Tom Fuentes, a former FBI assistant director who's a CNN contributor, described Dupnik's remarks as "a very emotional response by a very frustrated, hurt sheriff."
When media cover "hateful" public statements by officials or television personalities, those remarks are often framed as "they're exciting their base," Fuentes said.
"Law enforcement executives out there know, like this sheriff, that it also excites the lunatic fringe," Fuentes told CNN. "In this country, we have no shortage of mentally unbalanced people, and it seems in case after case, they have no trouble obtaining firearms. So when they go over the edge and go public and try to initiate an attack, this is what happens."

It's just amazing how so many people on this forum are in denial that there's a gun violence problem in the USA.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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No
The problem is much much bigger than guns

It has more to do with the direction of this country





...and the overall solution is so simple, yet unfathomably complex.

Enforce the law.



CBS this moring reported he had purchased a Glock semi auto legally about a month ago.

So, to respond to kallend, yes, there is (or at least seems to be) a problem with this guy being able to purchase a gun (not a private sale either kallend). So how does a country or a state identify guys like this and keep him from getting a gun without stepping on the rights on non-nutters?



So one more person now recognizes that the current state of the laws on firearms is inadequate. Baby steps.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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"Tom Fuentes, a former FBI assistant director who's a CNN contributor, described Dupnik's remarks as "a very emotional response by a very frustrated, hurt sheriff."
When media cover "hateful" public statements by officials or television personalities, those remarks are often framed as "they're exciting their base," Fuentes said.
"Law enforcement executives out there know, like this sheriff, that it also excites the lunatic fringe," Fuentes told CNN. "In this country, we have no shortage of mentally unbalanced people, and it seems in case after case, they have no trouble obtaining firearms. So when they go over the edge and go public and try to initiate an attack, this is what happens."

It's just amazing how so many people on this forum are in denial that there's a gun violence problem in the USA.




So concealed carry permits should be mandatory so we can defend ourselves from said violence...;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Honestly, I don't know why the professor is so caught up with guns that he turnedthis into a gun thread.



Lets see:

John Kennedy assassination - gun
Bobby Kennedy assassination -gun
MLK assassination - gun
Reagan assassination attempt - gun
John Lennon - gun
Columbine - gun
VTech massacre - gun
This mass murder and assassination attempt - gun

Wow - anyone see a pattern that Kennedy can't fathom?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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No
The problem is much much bigger than guns

It has more to do with the direction of this country





...and the overall solution is so simple, yet unfathomably complex.

Enforce the law.



CBS this moring reported he had purchased a Glock semi auto legally about a month ago.

So, to respond to kallend, yes, there is (or at least seems to be) a problem with this guy being able to purchase a gun (not a private sale either kallend). So how does a country or a state identify guys like this and keep him from getting a gun without stepping on the rights on non-nutters?



So one more person now recognizes that the current state of the laws on firearms is inadequate. Baby steps.



Nope
Fail
Didnt say or insinuate that

Nice attempted twist however

Your dishonestly in a debated is disgusting
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Honestly, I don't know why the professor is so caught up with guns that he turnedthis into a gun thread.



Lets see:

John Kennedy assassination - gun
Bobby Kennedy assassination -gun
MLK assassination - gun
Reagan assassination attempt - gun
John Lennon - gun
Columbine - gun
VTech massacre - gun
This mass murder and assassination attempt - gun

Wow - anyone see a pattern that Kennedy can't fathom?



You got a solution in mind dont you sir

Come on
Have the guts to share it

I will not hold my breath but I can hope you can bring some integrity to the discussion
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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No
The problem is much much bigger than guns

It has more to do with the direction of this country





...and the overall solution is so simple, yet unfathomably complex.

Enforce the law.



The law is enforced, if a person buys a firearm at a gun shop. Even then, If a person has no paper trail back to prison or a mental institution, there is no reason why that person cannot buy a gun. Even then, a person may have no ill intention at the time they buy a gun. It could be years down the road or as early as right now when the next legal or illegal gun owner goes around the bend and shoots up a crowd.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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It's just amazing how so many people on this forum are in denial that there's a gun violence problem in the USA.



go up thread a bit and read... we have a horrible violence problem. If the guns went away, I don't believe things would get "all better".

You've been asked several times to post your suggestions. You apparently have none except to complain. I've seen several suggestions or enumerations of possibilities. But none from you.
--
Rob

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Honestly, I don't know why the professor is so caught up with guns that he turnedthis into a gun thread.



Lets see:

John Kennedy assassination - gun
Bobby Kennedy assassination -gun
MLK assassination - gun
Reagan assassination attempt - gun
John Lennon - gun
Columbine - gun
VTech massacre - gun
This mass murder and assassination attempt - gun

Wow - anyone see a pattern that Kennedy can't fathom?



All left-wing nut cases with the possible exception of 1, or maybe 2

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