How Many American Christians Are Really Atheist?

[skyrider 0]

How many American christians are really atheists?

December 29, 2010

I’m not the first guy to raise this question and I won’t be the last, but what the heck, let’s talk about it.

A lot of Americans think of themselves as “progressive christians” or “liberal christians,” and I count a good number of them among my friends and colleagues. Not long ago I was talking to one of these friends and we wandered into the subject of religion. Dawkins and Harris were invoked, as might be expected. Anti-Dawkins and -Harris resistance was encountered, also expected. So I finally decided to ask some questions that I had always wanted answers to, but had never actually asked.

The ensuing conversation went something like this:

Me: Do you believe that Mary was a virgin?

Friend: No, of course not.

Me: Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected three days after he was crucified.

Friend: Literally? No.

Me: How about that he turned water into wine or raised Lazarus from the dead?

Friend: No, those are just myths.

Me: Do you believe that he literally ascended into Heaven?

Friend: Please.

Me: Do you believe that there’s a Heaven and Hell as described in the Bible or as described by contemporary christian ministers?

Friend: No.

Me: So what happens when you die?

Friend: I don’t really know.

Okay, at this point we need to understand what we mean by certain terms. An atheist is “someone who denies the existence of god.” An agnostic “is not committed to believing in or disbelieving in the existence of God.” Theism is more literal: “Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.”

And “christian,” well, that’s a word that can apply to everything from genocidal literalists to intelligent, good-hearted people like my friend in the Samologue above (“Samologue” is “a dialogue with Sam,” by the way). The issue here, though, is whether liberal christianity and atheism or agnosticism are mutually exclusive. Fundamentalist christians are theists – they believe that god is a literal being, and nearly 50 years of close personal experience with them suggests that a large number of Americans, if not an overwhelming majority, take doctrinal issues like the virgin birth and the resurrection as literal fact.

Let’s have a look at the definition of christian.

adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Both #1 definitions open the door to something literal and supernatural with the “as Christ” formulation, and “based on the life and teachings of Jesus” leaves quite a bit open to interpretation, as well, given that a lot of what Jesus is alleged to have taught sounds kind of literal. But the rest?

I realize that resorting to online dictionary definitions of religious terminology lacks a certain theological nuance, but I’m abstracting for a reason. It appears to me that any number of liberal christians believe that Jesus lived and that his teachings represented a powerful code for living a productive, humane life. Further, I think they’d be comfortable asserting that this code makes a solid foundation upon which to build communities and societies. However, they don’t seem to believe that he was literally a supernatural being and they’re more inclined to read stories about his “miracles” as myth, not journalism. On the afterlife, they acknowledge that there’s not really any way of knowing, despite whatever beliefs or feelings they have.

If you’re a liberal christian and you’re reading this, do I have it about right?

I know lots and lots of atheists and agnostics who believe in pretty much the same principles. Many of them are willing to believe that Jesus, or someone very like him, existed and taught things that were pretty similar to what we have represented in the New Testament. I’ve known pagans to say that they have absolutely no problems at all with what liberal christians believe.

This all suggests that one can be an atheist and a christian at the same time, doesn’t it?

If so, we arrive at a question that I would love to see addressed by a national survey (preferably conducted by Pew): how many American christians are fundamentally agnostic or atheist when it comes to what they believe (or don’t believe) about the supernatural realm?

For me, at least, it’s interesting to ponder the idea that liberal christians have more in common theologically with certain atheists and pagans than they do with the christians down the street…

[quade 4]

Please cite sources, especially when quoting entire blog posts.
http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2010/12/29/how-many-american-christians-are-really-atheists/

I would prefer you NOT quote entire blog posts to begin with, a simple link will suffice, but if you absolutely must copy and paste the ENTIRE blog post, please, for your own sake, cite a link back to it so people won't think it's your own creation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[maadmax 0]

I have noticed that and wondered myself. I guess for the spiritual cowards who are afraid to live their faith, it is their way of getting close to those who have found the passion and purpose God offers through His Son. Jesus addressed this when He said " No one after putting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God."

[Coreece 190]

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How many American christians are really atheists?

Great post Gypsy...Thanks.

Part of me wanted to believe that you actually wrote it...but it doesn't matter to me...again, great post.
The first scripture that comes to mind when given this question is this:

Matthew 7;13-14:
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

This suggests that there are only few who really believe contrary to the statisticas that say around 75-80% of this country identifies with Christianity.

The second is this:
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

This section is basically talking to people who are considered believers but yet they are asked to make sure that they really believe...

needles to say, these are two passsages that are extremely relevant in my life right now...perhaps I'll feel inclined to expound and provide a lil more insight later...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[winsor 236]

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How many American christians are really atheists?

Rather a few. Christians have a pretty bad track record regarding the treatment of the deniers in their midst, so many of the deniers who survived are the ones who paid lip service to christian mythology.

Religion is viral by nature, so anything one can do to inoculate against its pathology improves the likelihood of survival.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Skyrad 0]

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christian mythology

I think you'll find the term is Christian Theology.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[winsor 236]

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christian mythology

I think you'll find the term is Christian Theology.

Wrong.

[rehmwa 2]

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christian mythology

I think you'll find the term is Christian Theology.

Wrong.

I find mythology and theology to be equivalent in everything except era

interesting tales used to explain things that bother us and leveraged by clever people to establish control over others

much like fables, fairy tales, global warming and political correctness

the question is, on a personal level does the belief result in more, or less, noble behavior? and that's a question that shouldn't be generalized


as to the thread title - the answer is 711,

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

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christian mythology

I think you'll find the term is Christian Theology.

Wrong.

Do you have a reason for your assertion or is it simply an arrogant disrespect for the belief of others?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[winsor 236]

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christian mythology

I think you'll find the term is Christian Theology.

Wrong.

Do you have a reason for your assertion or is it simply an arrogant disrespect for the belief of others?

Yes.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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How many American christians are really atheists?

December 29, 2010

I’m not the first guy to raise this question and I won’t be the last, but what the heck, let’s talk about it.

A lot of Americans think of themselves as “progressive christians” or “liberal christians,” and I count a good number of them among my friends and colleagues. Not long ago I was talking to one of these friends and we wandered into the subject of religion. Dawkins and Harris were invoked, as might be expected. Anti-Dawkins and -Harris resistance was encountered, also expected. So I finally decided to ask some questions that I had always wanted answers to, but had never actually asked.

The ensuing conversation went something like this:

Me: Do you believe that Mary was a virgin?

Friend: No, of course not.

Me: Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected three days after he was crucified.

Friend: Literally? No.

Me: How about that he turned water into wine or raised Lazarus from the dead?

Friend: No, those are just myths.

Me: Do you believe that he literally ascended into Heaven?

Friend: Please.

Me: Do you believe that there’s a Heaven and Hell as described in the Bible or as described by contemporary christian ministers?

Friend: No.

Me: So what happens when you die?

Friend: I don’t really know.

Okay, at this point we need to understand what we mean by certain terms. An atheist is “someone who denies the existence of god.” An agnostic “is not committed to believing in or disbelieving in the existence of God.” Theism is more literal: “Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.”

And “christian,” well, that’s a word that can apply to everything from genocidal literalists to intelligent, good-hearted people like my friend in the Samologue above (“Samologue” is “a dialogue with Sam,” by the way). The issue here, though, is whether liberal christianity and atheism or agnosticism are mutually exclusive. Fundamentalist christians are theists – they believe that god is a literal being, and nearly 50 years of close personal experience with them suggests that a large number of Americans, if not an overwhelming majority, take doctrinal issues like the virgin birth and the resurrection as literal fact.

Let’s have a look at the definition of christian.

adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Both #1 definitions open the door to something literal and supernatural with the “as Christ” formulation, and “based on the life and teachings of Jesus” leaves quite a bit open to interpretation, as well, given that a lot of what Jesus is alleged to have taught sounds kind of literal. But the rest?

I realize that resorting to online dictionary definitions of religious terminology lacks a certain theological nuance, but I’m abstracting for a reason. It appears to me that any number of liberal christians believe that Jesus lived and that his teachings represented a powerful code for living a productive, humane life. Further, I think they’d be comfortable asserting that this code makes a solid foundation upon which to build communities and societies. However, they don’t seem to believe that he was literally a supernatural being and they’re more inclined to read stories about his “miracles” as myth, not journalism. On the afterlife, they acknowledge that there’s not really any way of knowing, despite whatever beliefs or feelings they have.

If you’re a liberal christian and you’re reading this, do I have it about right?

I know lots and lots of atheists and agnostics who believe in pretty much the same principles. Many of them are willing to believe that Jesus, or someone very like him, existed and taught things that were pretty similar to what we have represented in the New Testament. I’ve known pagans to say that they have absolutely no problems at all with what liberal christians believe.

This all suggests that one can be an atheist and a christian at the same time, doesn’t it?

If so, we arrive at a question that I would love to see addressed by a national survey (preferably conducted by Pew): how many American christians are fundamentally agnostic or atheist when it comes to what they believe (or don’t believe) about the supernatural realm?

For me, at least, it’s interesting to ponder the idea that liberal christians have more in common theologically with certain atheists and pagans than they do with the christians down the street…

Your friend is not a Christian. That was easy.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Amazon 7]

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How many American christians are really atheists?

Rather a few. Christians have a pretty bad track record regarding the treatment of the deniers in their midst, so many of the deniers who survived are the ones who paid lip service to christian mythology.

Religion is viral by nature, so anything one can do to inoculate against its pathology improves the likelihood of survival.


BSBD,

Winsor

You might want to pass that on to Mike... he seems to feel it does not exist

Nope.. no peer pressure at all in that rather captive audience.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

It is an interesting topic but I think the question should be how many professed Christians are Atheist? The answer to your question as written is zero. As for your friend I have to agree with Rstanley0312, he is not a Christian. I have a fairly in depth exposure to both the Roman Catholic and Anglican (Episcopalian) branches. if I am not mistaken they are the two largest mainstream sects of Christianity. They both adhere to the Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.
Either you believe that or you don't.
When I was a Christian I believed it all.

[billvon 3,132]

>I guess for the spiritual cowards who are afraid to live their faith

Well, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to people who believe differently than you do.

[Niki1 2]

Jesus did not create Christianity.

The disciples did.
Jesus didn't do any writting himself like Mohammed did. Not any that have been found, anyway. Everything we know about him is second-hand. His gang wrote accounts of his life and even they have descrepances about what happened when. These guys wrote what they heard from their own perspective. I wouldn't think they intentionally shaded anything but it wasn't like they were keeping diaries. They wrote their accounts years after the events. And some of the accounts weren't written by the disciples. They were written by some one who heard the disciple tell it. So it wasn't like "verbal video" as it might have been with some one constantly recording the events as they happened.

So these slightly varying stories were passed around for a few hundred years. During this time, a lot of folks heard the stories and thought there were some very good ideas in them.And then some one decided to gather them together. But not everyting was included. Some one did the picking and choosing. It would be fair to think that things this person didn't agree with were not included. Supposedly, a "Gospel of Mary" has been found. Even a "Gospel of Judas".

So "christianity" was created, not by Jesus. but by men who may not have gotten the story exactly correct. That's the best case. The worst case is that they shaped it to their own purposes.

To think that the Bible is the "verbal video" that is 100% accurate just doesn't pass the logic test. It's been through over 30 translations even before all the modern day "versions".

I think Jesus was a good man, a cool dude. I like to think he had a sence of humor. Even if his ideas were a littled mangled, a lot of folks thought they were goof enough to live by.

It's the people who subvert good ideas for their own purposes who are evil. Wheather it's to motivate a large number of people for a crusade or jihad, to warn a neighbor of the dangers of hell.

Jesus wasn't a militant. He didn't demand anyone to beleive. He just put the ideas out there and the listeners could decide for themselves, take it or leave it. I wish the modern day christians would be more Christ like.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you have a reason for your assertion or is it simply an arrogant disrespect for the belief of others?

Yes.

pithy and dual pronged - nice

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[maadmax 0]

I guess for the spiritual cowards who are afraid to live their faith

Well, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to people who believe differently than you do.

[dj123 0]

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Here is the problem with the biblical Jesus.

If he was a God in a mans' body, there was no suffering and ressurection is guaranteed.
You can't kill a God!!!

Now , if as Dale Palmer suggests, Jesus was a man who became the Christ, that's a whole different ball of wax.

If it is true that one man became a "Christ" than it affords the opportunity for other men to become "Christ"or at least more Christ- like .

If Jesus was a God birthed to a human, virgin or otherwise, mans chance of becoming a Christ is much diminished.

Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings
through Truth, Enlightenment , and Understanding.


Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY

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[dj123 0]

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have a fairly in depth exposure to both the Roman Catholic and Anglican (Episcopalian) branches. if I am not mistaken they are the two largest mainstream sects of Christianity.

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The Master, Jesus the Christ taught that man needs no go between to God.
Therefore the churches you cite are not "Christian.

They both adhere to the Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

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Do you believe in one god or a trilogy of gods?
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or the one true God as represented in Islam?
The first couple lines of your Creed seem to leave no room for Jesus or the Holy Spook'
But that is your Creed and I respect that.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.

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Didn't The Master, Jesus the Christ teach that we are all Gods' children?
Didn't he teach us to pray; "Our Father who art in Heaven"?
Are we not then , according to Jesus himself , begotten of the Father?

< I'm snipping a bit here>

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He suffered,

If he was God and was able to turn water into wine,
do you mean to tell me he couldn't block out his own pain? C'mon!!! Martial artists and Navy Seals do this every day!!!
Where is the suffering? Why would you believe that??

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was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day,

Let's think about this.
He was buried in an above ground tomb. OK I can see that.
Three Days?
He died (do Gods die) on Friday afternoon. Traditionaly at about 3:00 pm .
Saturday at 3 he's dead(1 day) Sunday morning he's alive and kickin'!!! I see a day and a half. How do you figure Three Days????

OK, enough ! I think with these few examples you will either realize your belief is based on church propaganda or you will already have decided to look inward to find the real Truth as the Master, Jesus the Christ, taught us.

Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings
through Enlightenment and Understanding,

"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY

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[Andrewwhyte 1]

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have a fairly in depth exposure to both the Roman Catholic and Anglican (Episcopalian) branches. if I am not mistaken they are the two largest mainstream sects of Christianity.

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The Master, Jesus the Christ taught that man needs no go between to God.
Therefore the churches you cite are not "Christian.

If neither the Catholics nor the Anglican Communion are Christian then Christianity is not a major religion. What makes someone a Christian is of course a matter of debate, but belief in the tenants laid out in the Nicene Creed are one such definition. By the way the Lutherans also profess the creed. A bit ironic given your little rant about the protestations of Luther.

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They both adhere to the Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

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Do you believe in one god or a trilogy of gods?
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or the one true God as represented in Islam?
The first couple lines of your Creed seem to leave no room for Jesus or the Holy Spook'
But that is your Creed and I respect that.

Apparently you didn't read my whole post. I believe in none of the tenants of the creed.

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[dj123 0]

[replyApparently you didn't read my whole post. I believe in none of the tenants of the creed.

[Coreece 190]

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Jesus did not create Christianity.

The disciples did.

Ridiculous...christianity is not even mentioned in the bible...It's just a word describing something/someone with whom you believe.

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Jesus didn't do any writting himself like Mohammed did.

He didn't have to...He's God.

If you've studied scripture you'd see that Jesus often told others to do this and do that for his miracles to come to fruition...

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Everything we know about him is second-hand. His gang wrote accounts of his life and even they have descrepances about what happened when.

There are many attacks on scripture...God has surely provided us with a defense:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

If you want to talk descrepencies...list them...be specific.

Lets have a real debate.

I'd love the challenge...are you up to it?

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And some of the accounts weren't written by the disciples. They were written by some one who heard the disciple tell it.

You seem to present much about what you don't understand...do you even know the difference between a disciple and an apostle?

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So these slightly varying stories were passed around for a few hundred years. During this time, a lot of folks heard the stories and thought there were some very good ideas in them.And then some one decided to gather them together. But not everyting was included. Some one did the picking and choosing.

It's interesting that the picking and choosing was done by the romans and ironiclly enough their picking and choosing really has nothing to do with their doctrine nor belief...they simply found a way to control the masses...the scriptues they chose are are humourously out of touch with their definitions...It proves the point that those without the spirit cannot discern scripture nor even understand it...almost everything the Romans say about scripture is antithetical to it.

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"Gospel of Judas".

LMFAO...lets believe the traitor.
perhaps he'd have some credibility if he didn't kill himself over guilt.

Your argument is hillarious...do you even see the irony? You'd rather believe in something with less credibility than the words of many that you say are not credible.

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So "christianity" was created, not by Jesus. but by men who may not have gotten the story exactly correct. That's the best case. The worst case is that they shaped it to their own purposes.

As we've learned earlier, this is not the case if you've actually taken the time to study scripture...either biasedly or not.

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To think that the Bible is the "verbal video" that is 100% accurate just doesn't pass the logic test.

In't not a video...it's a book...100% accurate in it's original language...both literally and metaphorically.

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It's been through over 30 translations even before all the modern day "versions".

Humans are rather thick.

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I think Jesus was a good man, a cool dude. I like to think he had a sence of humor.

I know for certain.

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It's the people who subvert good ideas for their own purposes who are evil. Wheather it's to motivate a large number of people for a crusade or jihad

We agree...

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warn a neighbor of the dangers of hell.

I'm afraid you don't understand what hell actually is...

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Jesus wasn't a militant. He didn't demand anyone to beleive. He just put the ideas out there and the listeners could decide for themselves, take it or leave it. I wish the modern day christians would be more Christ like.

Amen...me too, but I'm not God...you completly missed his point.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[doughboyshred 0]

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There are many attacks on scripture...God has surely provided us with a defense:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

If you want to talk descrepencies...list them...be specific.

Lets have a real debate.

I'd love the challenge...are you up to it?

LOL

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Here are a few:

How many stalls and horsemen?

1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jesus' last words

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

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Of the various methods I've seen to "explain" these:

1. "That is to be taken metaphorically." In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN'T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD--which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want...

2. "There was more there than...." This is used when one verse says "there was a" and another says "there was b," so they decide there was "a" AND "b"--which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn't say there WASN'T "a+b." But it doesn't say there was "a+b+little green martians." This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e., only "a") and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don't mind adding to verses.

3. "It has to be understood in context." I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set which is supposed to be taken as THE TRUTH when, if you add more to it, it suddenly becomes "out of context." How many of you have gotten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown at you?

4. "There was just a copying/writing error." This is sometimes called a "transcription error," as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or what was "quoted" wasn't really what was said, but just what the author thought was said. And that's right--I'm not disagreeing with events, I'm disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the Bible itself is wrong.

5. "That is a miracle." Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact.

6. "God works in mysterious ways." A useful dodge when the speaker doesn't understand the conflict between what the Bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.

[Niki1 2]

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Jesus did not create Christianity.

The disciples did.

Ridiculous...christianity is not even mentioned in the bible...It's just a word describing something/someone with whom you believe.

My responce: Yes, it's that beleif system that the apostles/disciples created.

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Jesus didn't do any writting himself like Mohammed did.

He didn't have to...He's God.

If you've studied scripture you'd see that Jesus often told others to do this and do that for his miracles to come to fruition...


My responce: You're using the book we're talking about to prove the book we're talking about. Is that like using a word to define the word?

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Everything we know about him is second-hand. His gang wrote accounts of his life and even they have descrepances about what happened when.

There are many attacks on scripture...God has surely provided us with a defense:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

If you want to talk descrepencies...list them...be specific.

Lets have a real debate.

I'd love the challenge...are you up to it?

My responce: You're using the book we're talking about to prove the book we're talking about. Is that like using a word to define the word?

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And some of the accounts weren't written by the disciples. They were written by some one who heard the disciple tell it.

You seem to present much about what you don't understand...do you even know the difference between a disciple and an apostle?

My responce: Yes, I used the wrong word. (Good thiing I wasn't one of the translators.

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So these slightly varying stories were passed around for a few hundred years. During this time, a lot of folks heard the stories and thought there were some very good ideas in them.And then some one decided to gather them together. But not everyting was included. Some one did the picking and choosing.

It's interesting that the picking and choosing was done by the romans and ironiclly enough their picking and choosing really has nothing to do with their doctrine nor belief...they simply found a way to control the masses...the scriptues they chose are are humourously out of touch with their definitions...It proves the point that those without the spirit cannot discern scripture nor even understand it...almost everything the Romans say about scripture is antithetical to it.

My responce: Constintine was the Roman Emporer who commioned the work. He was the emporer of the eastern half of the Roman Empire. He was a christian. He chose between 2 clerics. One from around the northeast Med and one from Cairo. He chose the one from the NE Med. The one from Cairo would have chosen to include other writtings as well.

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"Gospel of Judas".

LMFAO...lets believe the traitor.
perhaps he'd have some credibility if he didn't kill himself over guilt.

Your argument is hillarious...do you even see the irony? You'd rather believe in something with less credibility than the words of many that you say are not credible.

My responce: And a gospel of Mary. The Mary Magdeline character in the Bible is probably a composite of severel different women.
And why be so down on Judas? If Jesus had to die for all the sins of the world, then Judas played an important part in your salvation.

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So "christianity" was created, not by Jesus. but by men who may not have gotten the story exactly correct. That's the best case. The worst case is that they shaped it to their own purposes.

As we've learned earlier, this is not the case if you've actually taken the time to study scripture...either biasedly or not.

My responce: Just because you or I say something doesn't mean the other has "learned" it. AND You're using the book we're talking about to prove the book we're talking about. Is that like using a word to define the word?

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To think that the Bible is the "verbal video" that is 100% accurate just doesn't pass the logic test.

In't not a video...it's a book...100% accurate in it's original language...both literally and metaphorically.

My responce: I intended the quotation marks to indicate a metaphore. The new testament wasn't written as a book. It was a collection of selected works writtin at different times and places. 100% accurate? The kid who says the star slid toward him is problably telling the truth. From his point of view. Can something be literal and metaphorical at the same time?

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It's been through over 30 translations even before all the modern day "versions".

Humans are rather thick.

My responce: This has been proven down through history.

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I think Jesus was a good man, a cool dude. I like to think he had a sence of humor.

I know for certain.

My responce: For certain? I sure like to think he did but I'd have enjoyed a few passages of him saying, "A jew and gentile walk into a bar..."

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It's the people who subvert good ideas for their own purposes who are evil. Wheather it's to motivate a large number of people for a crusade or jihad

We agree...

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warn a neighbor of the dangers of hell.

I'm afraid you don't understand what hell actually is...

My responce: WOW!! That could be a very involved thread all by itself.

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Jesus wasn't a militant. He didn't demand anyone to beleive. He just put the ideas out there and the listeners could decide for themselves, take it or leave it. I wish the modern day christians would be more Christ like.

Amen...me too, but I'm not God...you completly missed his point.

My responce: Or you did. Or we both did. Anyway, I enjoyed it. Thanks.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[KidWicked 0]

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Please cite sources, especially when quoting entire blog posts.
http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2010/12/29/how-many-american-christians-are-really-atheists/

I would prefer you NOT quote entire blog posts to begin with, a simple link will suffice, but if you absolutely must copy and paste the ENTIRE blog post, please, for your own sake, cite a link back to it so people won't think it's your own creation.

The minute that I saw correct punctuation and spelling, I knew it wasn't skyrider that wrote it. He's my favorite entertainment on here.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."