Did you ever have to pay a sydiving "coach"

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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>The idea of paying for the exchange of experience just sucks donkey balls.

To me the line is drawn by what you expect.

If you just want to jump, have fun and maybe learn a thing or two, great - there's room for that. If you want to get better fast and have someone dedicate some time to you, you may have to pay for that. There's room for that too.

Sure. I guess. But if someone is gonna call themselves a "coach" they'd better have 20,000 jumps under their belt and a room full of medals and trophies.

Think about it in terms football. Is a professional coach a guy who played one season of Pop Warner football or a guy who spent 10 or 20 years as an NFL player, maybe won a Superbowl ring or two THEN went to a team as coach.

The current definitions of what USPA calls a coach is ridiculous at best. And it's a scar on the sport.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[billvon 3,078]

>paying someone's slot is entirely different than paying them.

Not really; it's a continuum. Some DZ's cover organizer's slots so that the jumpers don't have to. Sometimes 3 jumpers will chip in to cover a fourth who is better. Sometimes they'll cover his pack job too, or throw him a few bucks, or $20, or $300 a day for 10 jumps with debrief.

>If someone wanted me to coach them, and they approached me
>asking for a service, I only asked that they cover the slot.

That's pretty reasonable - but be warned that you might well be called an "arrogant skygod" by someone who had those services provided to him by someone who covered their slot back when he was starting out. ("We helped newbies and didn't expect to be provided with a free skydive" etc etc.)

I think overall the coach program is a good thing; it starts people teaching sooner and gets them training in how to teach. The downside is now there's more things that people can charge for - but I think on the balance that's better than the alternative.

[billvon 3,078]

>But if someone is gonna call themselves a "coach" they'd better have
>20,000 jumps under their belt and a room full of medals and trophies.

?? Why? I'd prefer to get 8 way coaching from Christy than from Darryld, but someone else just starting out might well get as much from Darryld as from Christy (and end up paying a whole lot less.) For them, Darryld might indeed be a better coach than Christy.

The coach rating is not intended to certify that someone is a kickass 4 way god. It's just a basic instructional rating that ensures that coaches have a bare minimum of competence.

>The current definitions of what USPA calls a coach is ridiculous at best.

Do you think the same thing about AFF-JM's who do not have 40,000 jumps?

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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I think overall the coach program is a good thing; it starts people teaching sooner and gets them training in how to teach.

That's what the JM rating was for. Calling ones self a "coach" implies a complete mastery of something far above one's peers and years and years of experience.
You don't see folks with yellow belts teaching karate do you????

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The downside is now there's more things that people can charge for - but I think on the balance that's better than the alternative.

Which is what?

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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>But if someone is gonna call themselves a "coach" they'd better have
>20,000 jumps under their belt and a room full of medals and trophies.

?? Why? I'd prefer to get 8 way coaching from Christy than from Darryld, but someone else just starting out might well get as much from Darryld as from Christy (and end up paying a whole lot less.) For them, Darryld might indeed be a better coach than Christy.

The coach rating is not intended to certify that someone is a kickass 4 way god. It's just a basic instructional rating that ensures that coaches have a bare minimum of competence.

>The current definitions of what USPA calls a coach is ridiculous at best.

Do you think the same thing about AFF-JM's who do not have 40,000 jumps?

NO. In my mind at least, a JM is a junior instructor who is still learning. A coach is a master.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[billvon 3,078]

>Calling ones self a "coach" implies a complete mastery of something
>far above one's peers and years and years of experience.

No, it doesn't. It just implies an ability to teach. And a jumper with 200 jumps and a year in the sport may well have something to teach to a jumper with 10 jumps.

My brother in law coaches his daughter's soccer team. He is not a master of soccer; he played for a few years in college. He does not have years and years of experience. But for a team of 11 year olds - he's a good coach.

[billvon 3,078]

>NO. In my mind at least, a JM is a junior instructor who is still learning.
>A coach is a master.

Ah, so your definitions just don't agree with everyone else's. Replace "coach" with "junior instructor" and we're basically saying the same thing.

[winsor 236]

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Yup, taught all of them skypuppies how to swoop on an old Nova!

Ya know the nova got all the bad rap.
The design just previous to that was the Ariel.
It was never marketed.
I jumped and landed it twice.
The second time was just stupid.

Blue Skies,
DJ

Actually, the Nova got the rap it deserved. The semi-symmetric airfoil on the Nova was a far cry from the high-lift airfoil found on the Ariel.

Troy Loney sent me an article (in Russian) that got into the dynamics of the instability mode to which the Nova was/is subject.

In aerodynamics there is a principle that states that instability is the handmaiden of maneuverability. In the case of the Nova, the problem was that instability was courted in order to achive a brilliantly efficient airfoil; the periodic expulsion cycles to which the ramair airfoil is subject tended to move the stagnation point to the upper skin under conditions of high rate of change of angle of attack. At that point the canopy tends to fold up instantly (the "self packing parachute").

The likelihood of this flight regime could be reduced - but not entirely eliminated - by high wing loadings. Glide Path recommended a minimum loading of 1.35 pounds per square foot, IIRC.

I jumped a 170 Nova when someone traded with my Blue Track for one jump, and I was just over 1 psf. At 500 feet I decided to try out the front risers for speed control in the flare; bad idea - the canopy ate the nose. I swung out forward of the canopy with my heels pointed skyward, the canopy reinflated and dove under me, I fell past slack lines and missed the nose of the canopy, and was back under a flying canopy just in time to flare and land uncerimoniously.

I did not quite make it to the peas as I had intended. A guy on the ground said "wow, that was cool! Could you do it again?"

Loading the living snot out of it like Charlie Mullins did seemed to work. He jumped an 88 when he tipped in at 135 pounds dripping wet, and performed maneuvers that should not be tried at home.

The Nova was a great design, which usually did not kill the pilot.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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>NO. In my mind at least, a JM is a junior instructor who is still learning.
>A coach is a master.

Ah, so your definitions just don't agree with everyone else's. Replace "coach" with "junior instructor" and we're basically saying the same thing.

So... you speak for "everyone" now?
What you mean is you're speaking for USPA. I don't mind saying, USPA is WRONG. Someone else called it right when they said it was a way for USPA to make money for additional BS ratings.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[billvon 3,078]

>So... you speak for "everyone" now?

No, just the people I know. I'm sure there are people somewhere who really do believe that anyone titled "coach" is an elite professional athlete. But to most of the world, a coach is just someone who teaches something.

OTOH, "Jumpmaster" is indeed a somewhat deceptive term. It has the word "master" right there in it; he must be a true master of his sport. Surely a Jumpmaster outranks a mere instructor, right?

But in skydiving it doesn't - it means a level below an instructor. In any case, it doesn't really matter any more, because the position has been eliminated and replaced (somewhat) by "coach," which means someone qualified to teach, albeit at a lower level than an instructor. To me that's a step forward in clarity.

[Wings-n-Things 0]

You make some good points. Either way, giving someone with a couple hundreds jumps the idea that they are now knowledgable enough to charge money is not only a joke but IMHO dangerous. Not to mention bad for the sport.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[mnealtx 0]

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You make some good points. Either way, giving someone with a couple hundreds jumps the idea that they are now knowledgable enough to charge money is not only a joke but IMHO dangerous. Not to mention bad for the sport.

How so? How is a person with 200 jumps teaching a newbie a good thing, but a person with 200 jumps getting their slot covered a bad thing?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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You make some good points. Either way, giving someone with a couple hundreds jumps the idea that they are now knowledgable enough to charge money is not only a joke but IMHO dangerous. Not to mention bad for the sport.

How so? How is a person with 200 jumps teaching a newbie a good thing, but a person with 200 jumps getting their slot covered a bad thing?

It's not so much that money is exchanged that is a bad thing. Capitalism is good! It's just that the rating given to someone with such a low jump number gives the individual ideas of grandure. It feeds the "skygod with madskillz" mentallity when a person with a couple hundred jumps should just shut up and listen. Also, and maybe more importantly, it takes away from the joy of skydiving and learning with others. As I said before, some people you jump with you will know, and some you won't. Some you will learn from and others you will teach. The sport is expensive enough as it is without some greedy egotistical skygod soaking young jumpers for whatever they can get. It just kills the vibe.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[skybill 22]

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Have you ever had to pay a skydiving coach in order to meet license requirements ?

Blue Skies,
DJ

Hi dj,
No, but that was a long, long time ago in a galaxie far, far away. The chutes were "Round" and everyone wore combat boots, (if ya' were loaded with cash ya' mighta' sprung for a pair of "Frenchies") Coaches, we didn't need no stinkin' Coaches, we read Russ Gunbys' and Bud Sellicks' books for info then went up on a "30" and tried out the hot stuff!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[mnealtx 0]

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It's not so much that money is exchanged that is a bad thing. Capitalism is good! It's just that the rating given to someone with such a low jump number gives the individual ideas of grandure. It feeds the "skygod with madskillz" mentallity when a person with a couple hundred jumps should just shut up and listen. Also, and maybe more importantly, it takes away from the joy of skydiving and learning with others. As I said before, some people you jump with you will know, and some you won't. Some you will learn from and others you will teach. The sport is expensive enough as it is without some greedy egotistical skygod soaking young jumpers for whatever they can get. It just kills the vibe.

So, a 200 jump skydiver teaching a newbie without the certification is just for the love of the sport and 'giving back', but once that 200 jump skydiver has the cert, they suddenly turn into 'delusions of grandeur' and 'skygod with madskillz' egomaniacs?

Can you tell me what day of the course that's taught on? Evidently the coaches I've jumped with need refreshers or missed that day.

And a 200 jump skydiver should 'just shut up and listen'? Sounds like the 'egomaniac' and 'mad skillz' complaints are a bit of projection.

Lemme guess - a coach swooped the new skychick you were wanting to impress...am i right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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It's not so much that money is exchanged that is a bad thing. Capitalism is good! It's just that the rating given to someone with such a low jump number gives the individual ideas of grandure. It feeds the "skygod with madskillz" mentallity when a person with a couple hundred jumps should just shut up and listen. Also, and maybe more importantly, it takes away from the joy of skydiving and learning with others. As I said before, some people you jump with you will know, and some you won't. Some you will learn from and others you will teach. The sport is expensive enough as it is without some greedy egotistical skygod soaking young jumpers for whatever they can get. It just kills the vibe.

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So, a 200 jump skydiver teaching a newbie without the certification is just for the love of the sport and 'giving back', but once that 200 jump skydiver has the cert, they suddenly turn into 'delusions of grandeur' and 'skygod with madskillz' egomaniacs?

You love to deal in absolutes, don't you? I said it contributes to the attitude and kills the vibe.
And thanks for the spelling correction on "grandeur". I knew I had that wrong but wasn't gonna look it up. You're not gonna charge me for that are you???

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Can you tell me what day of the course that's taught on? Evidently the coaches I've jumped with need refreshers or missed that day.

Now you're getting stupid.

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And a 200 jump skydiver should 'just shut up and listen'? Sounds like the 'egomaniac' and 'mad skillz' complaints are a bit of projection.

Lemme guess - a coach swooped the new skychick you were wanting to impress...am i right?

LMAO!!! Ummm... no.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[mnealtx 0]

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So, a 200 jump skydiver teaching a newbie without the certification is just for the love of the sport and 'giving back', but once that 200 jump skydiver has the cert, they suddenly turn into 'delusions of grandeur' and 'skygod with madskillz' egomaniacs?

You love to deal in absolutes, don't you? I said it contributes to the attitude and kills the vibe.

I've worked with several coaches and none of them had the attitude you describe.

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And thanks for the spelling correction on "grandeur". I knew I had that wrong but wasn't gonna look it up. You're not gonna charge me for that are you???

De nada, and no charge - I'm neither a egostical spelling coach nor a spelling god.

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Can you tell me what day of the course that's taught on? Evidently the coaches I've jumped with need refreshers or missed that day.

Now you're getting stupid.

Sorry, the discussion brought it out in me - sort of like how that coach license brings out that 'skygod with madskillz' mentality in the coaches.

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And a 200 jump skydiver should 'just shut up and listen'? Sounds like the 'egomaniac' and 'mad skillz' complaints are a bit of projection.

Lemme guess - a coach swooped the new skychick you were wanting to impress...am i right?

LMAO!!! Ummm... no.

You sure? Because it sounds like you've got a whole batch of sour grapes ready to bottle up.

Seriously - I understand your point to an extent, and I'm sure that there ARE some coaches out there that are like that.

Conversely, there's a lot of high-number jumpers out there like that, too, and I'm sure that there's a number that do the same sort of 'pay my slot' thing that you accuse the coaches of being egotistical about.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skyrider 0]

So when is the OP going to get on their soapbox?

[rhaig 0]

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So when is the OP going to get on their soapbox?

he's just a shit stirrer. Likes to watch. I think he should start a gun thread if he really wants to stir some shit.

--
Rob

[billvon 3,078]

>Either way, giving someone with a couple hundreds jumps the idea that
>they are now knowledgable enough to charge money is not only a joke but
>IMHO dangerous.

I started JM'ing SL students at about 120 jumps. Got about $5 a load. (And a free jump from 3000 feet! Woohoo!)

Of course, at that point my skill set consisted of checking gear, making sure the SL was hooked up and being able to help people climb out of the airplane. I was theoretically supposed to be able to rappel down to a student in tow, grab his reserve handle and cut the static line, but we pretty much all agreed that that was well into the realm of fantasy.

You get paid for the skills you have. At that point what I was doing was probably worth $5 a load. Nowadays I get $30 a jump because I have both more teaching skill and more flying skill. Christy can get $300 for half a day's work.

[brucet7 0]

I was fortunate that my dz offered free coach jumps on Thursdays when I got my license. So I jumped a lot of Thursdays.

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[Andy9o8 2]

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I started JM'ing SL students at about 120 jumps. Got about $5 a load. (And a free jump from 3000 feet! Woohoo!)

Wow, that's $5 more than we used to get.

[normiss 858]

Nope.
People with "mad skillz" magically jump from "cleared for self jump" to A license without any guidance whatsoever.
Makes them more prepared for large RW formations.

[rehmwa 2]

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Nope.
People with "mad skillz" magically jump from "cleared for self jump" to A license without any guidance whatsoever.
Makes them more prepared for large RW formations.

you're silly - "mad skilz" is pretty much carte blanche to jump from "self jump" at 10 jumps straight to swooping sub 100 cross braces and 4man VRW (edit - while wearing the Go-Pro of course).

with similar success, mortality, and popularity

They can skip that pesky belly stuff right away

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants