Skyrad 0 #1 December 20, 2010 Italy sentences 23 CIA agents to prison for kidnap. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101215/tpl-uk-italy-usa-rendition-81f3b62.htmlWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #2 December 20, 2010 QuoteRe: "An Italian appeals court sentenced 23 Americans to up to nine years in jail Wednesday for the abduction of a Muslim cleric, in a symbolic condemnation of the CIA "rendition" flights used by the former U.S. government." That's okay. I hereby sentence the Italian authorities to up to nine years in jail for the symbolic trial of absent CIA agents, as a symbolic condemnation for giving safe haven to muslim terrorists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #3 December 20, 2010 Is this the Italian Gov. version of "knock this chip off my shoulder" , next they draw a line on the ground to cross? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #4 December 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteRe: "An Italian appeals court sentenced 23 Americans to up to nine years in jail Wednesday for the abduction of a Muslim cleric, in a symbolic condemnation of the CIA "rendition" flights used by the former U.S. government." That's okay. I hereby sentence the Italian authorities to up to nine years in jail for the symbolic trial of absent CIA agents, as a symbolic condemnation for giving safe haven to muslim terrorists. LOL...Except the guy in question was innocent and later dumped on the streets of Germany by the CIAWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #5 December 21, 2010 Loving that political masturbation they've got going on. A useless statement from an inconsequential government.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #6 December 21, 2010 As you can see already, you're going to get a lot of "America can do no wrong" bullshit responses.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #7 December 21, 2010 QuoteItaly sentences 23 CIA agents to prison for kidnap. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101215/tpl-uk-italy-usa-rendition-81f3b62.html Good. Italy is a democratic republic governed by the rule of law that is a US ally and with which the US has an extradition treaty. The lawful way to proceed would to be for the US to present Italy with an extradition warrant under seal, then work with the Italian authorities to arrest the suspect and either extradite him to an international court for acts of terrorism or extradite him to the US for violations of the United States Crimes Code, or keep him under detention as a belligerent of an ally under the Geneva Convention. Instead, the US, through its CIA agents, violated Italian law and sovereignty by committing a kidnapping on Italian soil. They were properly prosecuted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #8 December 21, 2010 The story brings up two major questions in my mind. QuoteEgyptian-born cleric Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr Was he actually an Italian citizen? If a group of Mexicans came across the border, kidnapped a bunch of other Mexicans and took them back, I don't know if I would have a lot of heart burn about that. Granted this case is different, but the question still remains, was he a naturalized Italian citizen? QuoteThe appeals court upheld a decision to drop charges against the former head of Italy's Sismi military intelligence service, Nicolo Pollari, because evidence against him violated state secrecy rules. So they just released enough classified evidence to convict the Americans? And what was the Itaiian government's role in this? This case really reeks of political posturing against the evil U.S."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #9 December 21, 2010 QuoteWas he actually an Italian citizen? No, and it's absolutely irrelevant. It would even be irrelevant regardless of whatever immigration status he might have had under Italian law. Italy is a sovereign nation with sovereign territory, and has laws prohibiting kidnapping. QuoteIf a group of Mexicans came across the border, kidnapped a bunch of other Mexicans and took them back, I don't know if I would have a lot of heart burn about that. Well, that convenient choice of analogy may resonate with some Americans due to cross-over emotion from the illegal immigrant problem in the US, but it's still nonsense. What you're doing is starting down the slope of giving a free pass to serious felonies being committed against people you don't like. Let's see how many honest prosecutors and police officers -even conservative ones! - you can get to agree with that sort of selective non-enforcement of criminal laws. Bet it won't be many. QuoteSo they just released enough classified evidence to convict the Americans? Not unlike the American government releasing "just enough" classified evidence to use against, for example, detainees at Guantanamo, but denying defense access to plenty of evidence on grounds of "national security". Cry me a river. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #10 December 21, 2010 QuoteAs you can see already, you're going to get a lot of "America can do no wrong" bullshit responses. That is the egotistical plateau that is the American way of thought, unfortunately."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #11 December 21, 2010 Quote Quote Italy sentences 23 CIA agents to prison for kidnap. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101215/tpl-uk-italy-usa-rendition-81f3b62.html Good. Italy is a democratic republic governed by the rule of law that is a US ally and with which the US has an extradition treaty....Instead, the US, through its CIA agents, violated Italian law and sovereignty by committing a kidnapping on Italian soil. They were properly prosecuted. And it happens over and over and over again...in countries all around the world...and not just by the U.S. though I would tend to think that the U.S. is a major player in the kidnapping game. Quote Let's see how many honest prosecutors and police officers -even conservative ones! - you can get to agree with that sort of selective non-enforcement of criminal laws. Bet it won't be many. Well, Andy, not to step on toes or anything but... Yes, you won't find many honest prosecutors and police officers because there just aren't that many. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #12 December 21, 2010 Quote No, and it's absolutely irrelevant. It would even be irrelevant regardless of whatever immigration status he might have had under Italian law. Italy is a sovereign nation with sovereign territory, and has laws prohibiting kidnapping. Unless, of course, the Italian government was in on the deal. But we will never know because the Italian agents involvement was not allowed to be brought to light."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #13 December 21, 2010 QuoteAs you can see already, you're going to get a lot of "America can do no wrong" bullshit responses. It is a pleasant change from the "America can do no right" bullshit posts."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #14 December 21, 2010 QuoteQuote No, and it's absolutely irrelevant. It would even be irrelevant regardless of whatever immigration status he might have had under Italian law. Italy is a sovereign nation with sovereign territory, and has laws prohibiting kidnapping. Unless, of course, the Italian government was in on the deal. Still no. Even if branches of the Italian government were in on it, it would still be illegal.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #15 December 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote No, and it's absolutely irrelevant. It would even be irrelevant regardless of whatever immigration status he might have had under Italian law. Italy is a sovereign nation with sovereign territory, and has laws prohibiting kidnapping. Unless, of course, the Italian government was in on the deal. Still no. Even if branches of the Italian government were in on it, it would still be illegal. So if we gave the OK to another county to carry away a criminal out of our country, that's illegal? Even if the person is in our country illegally? Do you know something about the law I don't? Andy, you care to weigh in on this?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #16 December 21, 2010 QuoteSo if we gave the OK to another county to carry away a criminal out of our country, that's illegal? If it's not done according to the extradition process that's enshrined in law, yes. Government agencies can't just do whatever they want, off the cuff, without worrying about due process.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #17 December 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteSo if we gave the OK to another county to carry away a criminal out of our country, that's illegal? If it's not done according to the extradition process that's enshrined in law, yes. Government agencies can't just do whatever they want, off the cuff, without worrying about due process. You say that as if you expect every country to abide by our laws, and that you can make them do that.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #18 December 21, 2010 No, he's saying that every country should abide by its own laws. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #19 December 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo if we gave the OK to another county to carry away a criminal out of our country, that's illegal? If it's not done according to the extradition process that's enshrined in law, yes. Government agencies can't just do whatever they want, off the cuff, without worrying about due process. You say that as if you expect every country to abide by our laws, and that you can make them do that. No, I don't say that. How on earth did you figure that?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #20 December 21, 2010 QuoteAndy, you care to weigh in on this? nah i shot me wad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #21 December 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteSo if we gave the OK to another county to carry away a criminal out of our country, that's illegal? If it's not done according to the extradition process that's enshrined in law, yes. Government agencies can't just do whatever they want, off the cuff, without worrying about due process. Due process? How much due process does a criminal have in a country he is not supposed to be in? Italy can give him as much rights as they want, or don't want. Just because liberals in this country want to give the right to vote to illegals here doesn't mean other countries have to afford illegals all the same rights. On the other side, extradition is not a process all countries have. Extradition is an agreement between to counties on how to handle criminals to not allow hiding places. Don't confuse it with a legal right. If we don't have an agreement with a country, they can do what ever they want, either protect him, turn him over, or let us come get him. Since we have bases in Italy, I know there is a SOFA, but I don't think there is an extradition agreement, hence this case. Some officials wanted him gone, others didn't. Because there is an anti-U.S. sentiment among some of the government officials there, we have this case."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #22 December 21, 2010 I venture that these CIA criminals will have severely curtailed travel plans. International Arrest Warrant, anyone? Seems the US will be their prison! P.S.: Thanks to biometric passports, a new identity just won't suffice... QuoteItaly sentences 23 CIA agents to prison for kidnap. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101215/tpl-uk-italy-usa-rendition-81f3b62.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #23 December 21, 2010 QuoteDue process? How much due process does a criminal have in a country he is not supposed to be in? Depends on the laws of the country. Judging by the fact that this case even exists, the CIA, and any Italian government agency that co-operated in the rendition, were breaking the law. QuoteJust because liberals in this country want to give the right to vote to illegals here doesn't mean other countries have to afford illegals all the same rights. Conversely, just because you don't want them to have any legal rights does not mean that Italian law does not give him any legal rights. QuoteSince we have bases in Italy, I know there is a SOFA, but I don't think there is an extradition agreement, hence this case. Oh really? QuoteSome officials wanted him gone, others didn't. Because there is an anti-U.S. sentiment among some of the government officials there, we have this case. No. They broke the law, hence this case.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #24 December 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteDue process? How much due process does a criminal have in a country he is not supposed to be in? Depends on the laws of the country. Judging by the fact that this case even exists, the CIA, and any Italian government agency that co-operated in the rendition, were breaking the law. QuoteJust because liberals in this country want to give the right to vote to illegals here doesn't mean other countries have to afford illegals all the same rights. Conversely, just because you don't want them to have any legal rights does not mean that Italian law does not give him any legal rights. QuoteSince we have bases in Italy, I know there is a SOFA, but I don't think there is an extradition agreement, hence this case. Oh really? QuoteSome officials wanted him gone, others didn't. Because there is an anti-U.S. sentiment among some of the government officials there, we have this case. No. They broke the law, hence this case. From your own link: Quote3. Extradition shall not be granted for offenses under military law which are not offenses under ordinary criminal law. Since he was wanted for questioning by the U.S. military (I'm assuming from the article), I highly doubt he would have been turned over under the extradition treaty. I'm thinking this was an Intelligence to Intelligence deal. Still, notice how only the U.S. agents were prosecuted. Selective prosecution when both parties are involved suggests bias. If it was that serious, the Italian agents would have been prosecuted also."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 December 22, 2010 Quote Quote As you can see already, you're going to get a lot of "America can do no wrong" bullshit responses. It is a pleasant change from the "America can do no right" bullshit posts. Good point. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
