one for shotgunners

[Zep 0]

I've recently aquired a second hand o/u trap gun 30in barrels, full and modified,
over the last week I've spent my spare time working on the stock till the dimentions
fit my stature and shooting postion, before putting it in the duplicating machine
I went out to try the POI , shot to the right , little more work on the stock,
shot to the right, cut a long story short I mounted a drilled steel tube perfectly
aligned with the barrel and it still shot to the right , perplexed I finally mounted the shot gun in a
vice typr arangement sighted it in and at 20yds 3ins to the right of POI.

Now I'm stummped. Looking for pointers .

Gone fishing

[rushmc 23]

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I've recently aquired a second hand o/u trap gun 30in barrels, full and modified,
over the last week I've spent my spare time working on the stock till the dimentions
fit my stature and shooting postion, before putting it in the duplicating machine
I went out to try the POI , shot to the right , little more work on the stock,
shot to the right, cut a long story short I mounted a drilled steel tube perfectly
aligned with the barrel and it still shot to the right , perplexed I finally mounted the shot gun in a
vice typr arangement sighted it in and at 20yds 3ins to the right of POI.

Now I'm stummped. Looking for pointers .

I had one that did something similar. A gunsmith patterned the gun and told me the barrel was bent

He wrapped the barrel in leather, stuck it in a vise and bent it back

Scarry to watch but it worked

Something to check

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Zep 0]

Nearest gunsmith to me is two hours away, I did check the barrels for true on a machined surface
they seem as staight as can be.

I also know it's not my eyes as my other trap gun gives me a perfect center and 60/40.

Gone fishing

[rushmc 23]

Pattern the gun at 30 yards. Get a 4 by 4 sheet of card board. Aim at the center and see where the pattern is.

This can give you a better idea of how straight the barrells really are
Are the chokes screw in or are they formed into the barrell?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Zep 0]

Thats what I do to initially find POI except at 20 mts instead of 30,
If the gun is shooting to the right it makes no diffrerence if you are 16, 20,30 or 40yds
from the target , the only difference you'll see is the amount of shot missing the center.

Gone fishing

[mnealtx 0]

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Nearest gunsmith to me is two hours away, I did check the barrels for true on a machined surface
they seem as staight as can be.

I also know it's not my eyes as my other trap gun gives me a perfect center and 60/40.

If you vised it and got the same result, the only things I can think of are bent barrels, barrels off-true to the reciever, or off-true choke or choke threads in the barrels.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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20yds 3ins to the right of POI

3" @ 20 yds? Really? Are you kidding me? It's a trap gun, not a rifle.
If you are that concerned about it then do as I always did to fine tune the point of impact on my turkey guns. Use an offset front bead. I used to make my own from capscrews.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Zep 0]

Reciever is perfect, your point about the choke has given me an idea,
the gun has fixed chokes so it can't be threads,
the gun has a non selective trigger so I'm always firing the same barrel
Tomorrow I'll load two shells fire the first into the ground and see what the top barrel does.

Is it possible that a machined choke could be out of line?

Gone fishing

[rushmc 23]

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Reciever is perfect, your point about the choke has given me an idea,
the gun has fixed chokes so it can't be threads,
the gun has a non selective trigger so I'm always firing the same barrel
Tomorrow I'll load two shells fire the first into the ground and see what the top barrel does.

Is it possible that a machined choke could be out of line?

Yes

Good test
Let us know how it goes

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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20yds 3ins to the right of POI

3" @ 20 yds? Really? Are you kidding me? It's a trap gun, not a rifle.

Three inches can be the difference between a hit and a miss. There's a *reason* why serious shotgunners pay for custom built or adjustable stocks.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PiLFy 3]

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I've recently aquired a second hand o/u trap gun 30in barrels, full and modified,
over the last week I've spent my spare time working on the stock till the dimentions
fit my stature and shooting postion, before putting it in the duplicating machine
I went out to try the POI , shot to the right , little more work on the stock,
shot to the right, cut a long story short I mounted a drilled steel tube perfectly
aligned with the barrel and it still shot to the right , perplexed I finally mounted the shot gun in a
vice typr arangement sighted it in and at 20yds 3ins to the right of POI.

Now I'm stummped. Looking for pointers .

What make of gun is it? Is it worth spending some money on? I do have one gun that gave me trouble in the beginning. After a while, I simply got used to its quirks. I'll shoot consistent 23-24 in skeet (I ALWAYS miss one ), & am an 80 percentile shooter in sporting clays (w/that gun).

[mnealtx 0]

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Reciever is perfect, your point about the choke has given me an idea,
the gun has fixed chokes so it can't be threads,
the gun has a non selective trigger so I'm always firing the same barrel
Tomorrow I'll load two shells fire the first into the ground and see what the top barrel does.

Better idea - put up two pattern boards and shoot one, then the other without coming off the stock. If you get the same POI from the top barrel, that'd be a stronger case for bent barrels or off-axis barrel installs, I would think.

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Is it possible that a machined choke could be out of line?

I guess so, but it seems like it'd be a pretty low probability compared to a screw-in choke.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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20yds 3ins to the right of POI

3" @ 20 yds? Really? Are you kidding me? It's a trap gun, not a rifle.

Three inches can be the difference between a hit and a miss. There's a *reason* why serious shotgunners pay for custom built or adjustable stocks.

Yes, three inches can be the difference between a hit or a miss. However, rare is the person who would ever notice a difference in their scores on the trap field. Before worrying about a 3" error in POI there are other, far more important, things to consider. Is the gun throwing a good pattern with no gaping holes? Can it do so with different loads? Is the action tight? Is the trigger crisp with a consistent pull?
Only after all that is taken care of should a very small error in impact be addressed. More times than I can count I have watched a good shooter with an off the shelf Winchester, Remington, Browning, etc. trap gun with beat up on $20,000 custom trap guns.
Can 3" cause a miss? Absolutely. But if that 3" causes miss, there are much more serious problems with the gun and/or technique that need to be resolved before the shooter/gun combo will ever be a threat to win The Grand.
Again, if it that big of a concern, an offset bead will eliminate the small error.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

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Again, if it that big of a concern, an offset bead will eliminate the small error.

Which, of course, is why the serious shooters just install an offset bead instead of getting a fitted stock.

You mention a rifle, above - would you tell a rifle shooter to just crank in some windage to center the group from a stringing barrel, or would you tell him to float the barrel and bed the action?

I understand your point, but the quick fix isn't necessarily the best one.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Again, if it that big of a concern, an offset bead will eliminate the small error.

Which, of course, is why the serious shooters just install an offset bead instead of getting a fitted stock.

You mention a rifle, above - would you tell a rifle shooter to just crank in some windage to center the group from a stringing barrel, or would you tell him to float the barrel and bed the action?

I understand your point, but the quick fix isn't necessarily the best one.

If the problem were stock fit it would have been corrected by adjustments to the stock. But those didin't help. Since that is the case I would assume the shooter is aiming the shotgun like a rifle. That is, he is sighting along the rib and using the bead as a font sight. If that is the case then all the stock adjuctments in the world will do no good. POI must be corrected the same as you would a rifle....by moving the front sight, the rib, or bending the barrel. Since the error is very small an offset bead is the correct way to go. Sometimes the correct way acually IS quick and easy. After all, you wouldn't sight in a rifle by bending the barrel, would you?
If the shooter were checking to see if the gun was shooting where he was pointing it, which is the proper way to check POI on a trap gun, adjustments to the stock would have corrected the POI.
An error in POI is not the same as causes of stringing in a rifle and therefor are not corrected the same way.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

This is a fun discussion, but it's moot - the gun is shooting 3" right of point-of-aim from a VICE.

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I finally mounted the shot gun in a
vice typr arangement sighted it in and at 20yds 3ins to the right of POI.

There's a *physical* problem with the gun, not the shooter.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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This is a fun discussion, but it's moot - the gun is shooting 3" right of point-of-aim from a VICE.

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I finally mounted the shot gun in a
vice typr arangement sighted it in and at 20yds 3ins to the right of POI.

There's a *physical* problem with the gun, not the shooter.

Ok, we agree on that. So, how do we get the POA and POI aligned? We shift POA...if you shoot a shotgun like a rifle. Or are turkey hunting.
But a trap gun is not aimed. It is pointed. Most good trap shooters would not drop a single bird from their score if the bead(s) were removed from their gun.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Zep 0]

Ok I would of liked to put up some pattern boards today but a thick mist rolled in.
To answer some replys, I point not aimthe gun and I always shoot with both eyes open
I have a domanant right eye, I need a LOP of 15 1/2 summer and a LOP 15 winter
I aso need a 3/8 cast off. I shoot our version of sport clay not trap. I prefere the extra length
of the trap gun as for me it aids the swing and follow through. the gun is an "Amberri match trap"
perfectly balanced at 3.5Kgs I use a Rio or Saga 12/70 7/12 28grains.
The more I think about it I'm convinced it must be a problem with the choke.
One thing I noticed was that on the paterning cardboard was that apart from the POI being off center was that the
plastic wad was perforating the cardboard much more to the right than the center paterning of the shot
this was under nil wind conditions, when I can I'll put up photos of the paterning boards. (weather permiting)

Just as a bye the bye the only time I consiously see the bead is when I aim at some thing,
when I shoot clays or what ever, I look follow target and can really never remember seeing the bead
(hope that makes sence)

Gone fishing

[Belgian_Draft 0]

If you are truly pointing the gun then POI v. POA with the gun held in a vice-like device is moot.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Zep 0]

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If you are truly pointing the gun then POI v. POA with the gun held in a vice-like device is moot.

No not really, in the original post I said that I was working on the stock.
From experience mounting a shotgun I know where it's going to shoot.
If after reworking the stock and calmly mounting the shotgun it's point
of impact isn't where I'm pointing then their is a problem.
If after mounting a sight (albeit a drilled tube perfectly aligned with the barrel)
and mounting the shotgun in a vice it still dosen't hit the center of the target
on the horizintal plane then the shotgun has a problem.


When a shotgun fits the shooter the point of aim and the point of impact
should correspond to shooters configuration of the stock

Gone fishing

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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If you are truly pointing the gun then POI v. POA with the gun held in a vice-like device is moot.

No not really, in the original post I said that I was working on the stock.
From experience mounting a shotgun I know where it's going to shoot.
If after reworking the stock and calmly mounting the shotgun it's point
of impact isn't where I'm pointing then their is a problem.
If after mounting a sight (albeit a drilled tube perfectly aligned with the barrel)
and mounting the shotgun in a vice it still dosen't hit the center of the target
on the horizintal plane then the shotgun has a problem.


When a shotgun fits the shooter the point of aim and the point of impact
should correspond to shooters configuration of the stock

My whole point is that there is no point-of-aim when using a shotgun properly. They are not aimed. If the gun fits the shooter properly the gun will shoot where the shooter is looking/pointing, unless there is a major fault in the weapon that causes it to shoot nowhere close to where the barrel is pointing such as a severely bent barrel, etc.
But what the hell do i know. All i ever did was break 399/400 singles and 100/100 handicap in the same day using an off the shelf BT-99.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[JohnRich 4]

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I finally mounted the shot gun in a vice typr arangement sighted it in and at 20yds 3ins to the right of POI.

More details please on "sighted it in"...
Did you bore sight it? Eyeball sight it using the front bead? Use a laser cartridge insert?

[mnealtx 0]

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unless there is a major fault in the weapon that causes it to shoot nowhere close to where the barrel is pointing such as a severely bent barrel, etc.

Like something that would cause a action clamped in a vice to shoot 3" off axis, perhaps?

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But what the hell do i know. All i ever did was break 399/400 singles and 100/100 handicap in the same day using an off the shelf BT-99.

Appeal to authority. I'm betting if you clamped that BT-99 in a vice, it wouldn't be shooting 3" off bore at 20 yards, either.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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unless there is a major fault in the weapon that causes it to shoot nowhere close to where the barrel is pointing such as a severely bent barrel, etc.

Like something that would cause a action clamped in a vice to shoot 3" off axis, perhaps?

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But what the hell do i know. All i ever did was break 399/400 singles and 100/100 handicap in the same day using an off the shelf BT-99.

Appeal to authority. I'm betting if you clamped that BT-99 in a vice, it wouldn't be shooting 3" off bore at 20 yards, either.

I have no idea if it would or not. But since it was a gun that was mass produced in Japan I would be shocked if it hit within 3" of POA. I merely fired at a paper target by pointing the shotgun, then adjusted the stock until it hit where I was pointing it.
You are still debating under the assumption that POA matters.
It does not.
The only thing that matter is if it hits where it is being POINTED.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

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You are still debating under the assumption that POA matters.
It does not.
The only thing that matter is if it hits where it is being POINTED.

Where's the pointing error when it's clamped in a vice, pray tell?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706