BRADLEY MANNING: POSTER BOY FOR 'DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL'

[Amazon 7]

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I think your story makes the point that any individual, regardless of sexual orientation, can serve.

Ok Matt,
I'll bite, let's address the 500lb elephant in the room.

What would two good looking openly serving (so to speak) lesbians do for unit morale? Me thinks much...
What would two pissed off butchy lesbians do for the unit mission? Me thinks much........

What does a flaming guy openly serving do for either? Me thinks not much......

There's my double standard..................
Now back to the serious discussion......

How about 2 macho assholes constantly having dick measuring contests leading to brawls....and ending up in the brig or stockade, does that help morale?

How about the troop that thinks he is gods gift to every woman in the unit but only acts out with one... by slippin her a reffie and ... he claims it was consensual??

[mnealtx 0]

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What would two good looking openly serving (so to speak) lesbians do for unit morale? Me thinks much...

I'm sort of doubting that the ladies in question are going to put on floor shows for the rest of the unit - sorry to pop that fantasy bubble.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[winsor 236]

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While I am in favor of universal conscription, and for service as a prerequisite for citizenship a la "Starship Troopers," I think that a form of DADT that protects gays from malicious outing is the best we can do for the moment.

I missed this when you first posted it, Winsor. It's very well stated and very thoughtful. The only thing I want to say is that I think that DADT was good for its time 15 years ago, but it's time to move on now.

The problem I have is when a set of individuals coalesce into a pressure group with agenda separate from the mainstream and things get blurry.

Say the Library Workers Union International is going through a time of Byzantine infighting, and this results in the leadership taking a strong stance on a municipal budget policy. If one opposes their standpoint for economic reasons, they immediately come under fire for being "Anti-Librarian!" and so forth.

The point here is that, when any pressure group coalesces as a distinct political entity, they should be prepared to be judged as a group. This is very significant.

When I was in Grad School, I strongly opposed the existence of the Black Students Union on campus as being a racist organization. My logic was that if it was a White Student Union people would go berserk, and that the selection of "black" or "white" in the descriptor was immaterial to the racist nature of the organization. Fast forward to this week, and West Chester University just caused everyone to go berserk when students circulated fliers about a "White Student Union" to supplement the "Black Student Union."

I have known GLB (no T) military people from E-1 on up that were entirely professional and whose sexuality was never an issue. I think it is asinine to base their fitness to serve on their sexual preference.

If, however, a "GLBT Servicepeople's Union" became a reality and began making demands to accommodate agenda separate from the "norm" (whatever that might be), there will be similar blurring about the basis of any objection to the GLBT Servicepeople's Union's agenda.

Put another way, there are only two kinds of people - "Us" and "Them." If a group fights for the right to be part of Us, that is one thing. If, however, they fight to be treated as a group separate from Us, they choose to be Them.

Thus, if people insist that who they do or do not sleep with is none of my goddamn business so long as I am not involved, I am cool with that. If they insist on making who they do or do not sleep with their defining characteristic, they should beware of the consequences of said decision.

I greatly prefer that merit be the only consideration in whether someone is accepted in a military unit, and that sexuality be left as far out of the equation as possible. If a skilled and dedicated close air support pilot is disqulified in favor of a more timid airman, or if a combat medic who is cool under fire is replaced by someone who becomes useless when things go bang, I oppose whatever policy makes that happen. I greatly value said pilot and medic, and want them on my side.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Bolas 5]

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Put another way, there are only two kinds of people - "Us" and "Them." If a group fights for the right to be part of Us, that is one thing. If, however, they fight to be treated as a group separate from Us, they choose to be Them.

Excellent point.

However the only thing I might add would be to aid a group in becoming "us." "Us" itself may have to be reevaluated and make changes that apply to all. This is far better than setting separate standards for different subgroups.

ie: If people are really worried about "flamers" the standard policies of sexual harassment should suffice. If people want more assurance perhaps a policy concerning overtly sexual behavior that does not specify gender or orientation may be in order.

It always humors me how "segregation" and "separate but equal" is perfectly acceptable unless for white straight men or designated by white straight men.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,118]

>What does a flaming guy openly serving do for either? Me thinks not much..

Me thinks much - for the other gay guys in the unit.

[Andy9o8 2]

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(no T)

Ha. That you know of.

[winsor 236]

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(no T)

Ha. That you know of.

40 years ago sex-reassignment surgery was not a reality. Someone with mismatched gender equipment would not have made it past "turn your head and cough."

Similarly, women with adam's apples and penises would have been flagged during the physical.

I have most certainly known a few Ts since returning to civilian life. I am not sure where they fall into the mix, but again, if they can carry a rucksack all day in bad guy country and reliably provide accurate covering fire if I'm in a jam, they have my vote.


BSBD,

Winsor

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm sort of doubting that the ladies in question are going to put on floor shows for the rest of the unit - sorry to pop that fantasy bubble.

Damn!
Just when somebody came up with a good reason to sign up.
*POP*

Thanks Mike...you just saved me from myself.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[labrys 0]

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40 years ago sex-reassignment surgery was not a reality.

I think you're confusing Transgender with Transsexual.

Even if you are, there are many transsexuals who never get reassignment surgery. It's not a requirement.



Brought this to mind though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPML-n1kRnY

Owned by Remi #?

[skycop 0]

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I'm sort of doubting that the ladies in question are going to put on floor shows for the rest of the unit - sorry to pop that fantasy bubble.

Damn you're right, I waited 27yrs and never got one, guess I can still dream...........

But the theory still stands, I'd never want to fight against a platoon of pissed off butchy lesbians......
I'm just saying.....

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[RonD1120 62]

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But the theory still stands, I'd never want to fight against a platoon of pissed off butchy lesbians......
I'm just saying.....

Consider PMS with PTSD.

The said fact is female veterans are more likely to commit suicide.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/646888.html

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[labrys 0]

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The said fact is female veterans are more likely to commit suicide.

The study compares suicide rates of female veterans to female civilians.

What are the relative suicide rates of male veterans to male civilians?

What are the relative suicide rates of female to male veterans?

What are the relative suicide rates of female to male civilians?

Are the females who serve in the military already pre-disposed to suicide or does something happen after they join that makes them more prone?

What is your point?

Edit: I decided to do a little "quick" research on this myself. From your article about female veterans:

"In the 18-to-34 age group, there were 56 suicides among 418,132 veterans"

Here's an article from CBS News about suicide rates for male veterans:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/11/national/main6083072.shtml

"In 2005, the rate per 100,000 veterans among men ages 18-29 was 44.99"

So now we know that female veterans are more likely to commit suicide than females who have never served, and that male veterans are 4x more likely to commit suicide than female veterans.

WTF does this have to do with DADT anyway?

Owned by Remi #?

[jclalor 12]

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I'm sort of doubting that the ladies in question are going to put on floor shows for the rest of the unit - sorry to pop that fantasy bubble.

[RonD1120 62]

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What is your point?

Information sharing.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[labrys 0]

I've added to my post. Please take a look.

Owned by Remi #?

[RonD1120 62]

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I've added to my post. Please take a look.

OK

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Bolas 5]

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I'm sort of doubting that the ladies in question are going to put on floor shows for the rest of the unit - sorry to pop that fantasy bubble.

No floor show, but this female soldier was raped over and over in exchange for keeping the fact that she was a lesbian secret.

http://prideinutah.com/?p=1711

[labrys 0]

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I'm sorry she went through all that, I really am, but she didn't have to.

Bullshit. That statement is fucked up on so many levels.

That boils down to accepting this hateful, criminal behavior as just another way to prevent gays from having military careers.

Fuck her, huh? If she doesn't like it she can go get another job.

Anger aside:

She knew she didn't have to put up with it. She expresses regret for making the choice to put up with it.

The tragedy in DADT is that she was forced to have to make a choice at all if she wanted to have a career she seems to have been deeply committed to.

Owned by Remi #?

[GeorgiaDon 380]

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Even if one gets kicked out of the military, ... just find another job.

How about if the "job" is more than just a "paycheck". Have you ever experienced a career that you are personally invested in for more than the money? Sure doesn't sound like it.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Bolas 5]

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I'm sorry she went through all that, I really am, but she didn't have to.

Bullshit. That statement is fucked up on so many levels.

That boils down to accepting this hateful, criminal behavior as just another way to prevent gays from having military careers.

Fuck her, huh? If she doesn't like it she can go get another job.

Anger aside:

She knew she didn't have to put up with it. She expresses regret for making the choice to put up with it.

The tragedy in DADT is that she was forced to have to make a choice at all if she wanted to have a career she seems to have been deeply committed to.

I am in no way accepting the depsicable behavior she put up with but the fact stands that she did.

DADT was just the reason for the behavior, but far from the root cause. Sadly, remove the specifities of DADT of her situation and the blackmail scenario is probably all too common in military and civilian life.

You see this as simply a policy issue, where I see this as an empowerment one.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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Even if one gets kicked out of the military, ... just find another job.

How about if the "job" is more than just a "paycheck". Have you ever experienced a career that you are personally invested in for more than the money? Sure doesn't sound like it.

Don

I'm glad you used the term invested. Because the same rules apply: no matter how good you think something is, if the risk gets too high or the overall return drops too low, sometimes you just have to get out with what you can, while you can.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

Additionally, regardless of the final outcome for that person, taking a stand for others and themselves is always the right thing to do and is necessary to get things changed for all.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,118]

>Once a blackmailer starts, report them for blackmailing and harassment.

Yes. They can do that. We should do our part as well, and take away the blackmailer's weapons. "I will take away your job (and/or house, and/or children) if you do not comply" is a powerful weapon for a blackmailer indeed.

[Bolas 5]

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>Once a blackmailer starts, report them for blackmailing and harassment.

Yes. They can do that. We should do our part as well, and take away the blackmailer's weapons. "I will take away your job (and/or house, and/or children) if you do not comply" is a powerful weapon for a blackmailer indeed.

Agreed. And as people start coming forward we take away those weapons, but the main focus has to be empowerment against blackmailers in general.

Incidents of blackmail will drop far faster if people stand up to them regardless of issue versus trying to eliminate each and every possibility of blackmail only.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Incidents of blackmail will drop far faster if people stand up to them regardless of issue versus trying to eliminate each and every possibility of blackmail only.

Uh, WTF?

There's isn't a newsletter for blackmailers that tells them people are fighting back. Blackmail works because if the victim reports you, they still almost certainly suffer the penalty of the information of interest. The military will still discharge the soldier. Spouses will still file for divorce against their cheating partner. Etc.

Eliminate DADT because it's the proper thing to do, and we need these volunteers. That it gets rid of blackmail that could compromise soldiers and secrets is a secondary benefit.