Tired of TSA's Expanding Power?

[NWFlyer 2]

Now would be a good time to write your Senator if he or she is on the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. That committee has a hearing on Wednesday, November 17 on TSA Oversight.

Hearing:
http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Hearings&ContentRecord_id=9ad9e372-c415-4758-805a-4b4a295ccb8b&ContentType_id=14f995b9-dfa5-407a-9d35-56cc7152a7ed&Group_id=b2afa036-c20d-49ae-9211-b5ef8d7ea62d

Committee members:
http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=CommitteeMembers

It's Congress that's going to have to take some action on "security theater" because apparently the TSA believes it has the backing of the courts. (That ruling came about before the latest TSA rules which seem to say "You can get an xray or you can get a full body pat-down, but once we decide you have to get one, you have no other options."

http://consumerist.com/2010/11/you-might-be-in-serious-for-refusing-to-be-tsa-screened.html

Here's but one example of a guy who tried to opt out in a very calm and reasonable manner ... this is his direct account; it's also gotten a ton of media attention in the last couple days.
http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/these-events-took-place-roughly-between.html

Let your Senator know what you think about security theater.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Remster 30]

http://despair.com/tsa.html

Remster

[skyrider 0]

They need to stop hiring people that failed the Police officer test , and couldn;t even get a job as a security gaurd....they are getting power hungry Nut cases!

[diablopilot 2]

By buying the ticket you gave up a lot of your rights."

Like hell it did.

"I think security outweighs a lot of things."

Like the First and Fourth Amendments?

People need to start getting mad. Quietly mad. The type of mad that gets things changed, and brings the "big brother" attitude to it's knees.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[scruffy 0]

I'm about sick of this nonsense.

Isn't this current debacle in our airports the perfect analogy for what
happens when you give the government free reign, especially in the
promise of safety. We go 10 years unquestioning the actions of the
TSA...and they reward us by literally raping people.

Thanks a pantload Washington, I'll sleep better knowing you're feeling up Granny for the sake of my safety

What it boils down to me is anyone can still get a weapon on a plane....it's not a terribly difficult feat, and the TSA doesn't seem to be unwilling to give people every advantage to make it happen.

What we get instead is security theater, intrusive searches, theft of property...and we aren't the slightest bit safer for it.

I'm not the kind of person to hold up the example of the Israelis lightly, but their government has this down to an art form. What the government needs to do is dispense with the charade they are currently employing and instead of looking for weapons, look for people who intend to cause trouble on flights.

You don't do that with metal detectors, you don't do it by feeling up someones junk, you do it with common sense and conversation.

I've written both my Congressman and Senator, but a whole fuckall's worth of good I expect it to do.

Peace, love and hoppiness

[billvon 3,080]

>Isn't this current debacle in our airports the perfect analogy for what
>happens when you give the government free reign . . .

Basically yes.

>I'm not the kind of person to hold up the example of the Israelis lightly,
>but their government has this down to an art form.

Yes. And if you want Granny felt up, they're the ones to do it. If you ever fly on an El Al flight in Europe you'll see examples of that.

We need to get farther from the example set by the Israelis, not closer.

[scruffy 0]

That's not the impression I've gotten from what I had read, but I'll defer to your experience.

My point remains though that looking for weapons is fruitless, only looking for those who seek to do the passengers harm can have any real effect.

Peace, love and hoppiness

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

We need to get farther from the example set by the Israelis, not closer.

Interesting article on that topic. It's a year old but still relevant.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4ce0361af7973d2e%2C0

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Guest]

Quote

Yes. And if you want Granny felt up, they're the ones to do it. If you ever fly on an El Al flight in Europe you'll see examples of that.

We need to get farther from the example set by the Israelis, not closer.

I've flown on El Al, and nobody felt me up. However, I was questioned about who I was, where I was from, where I was going, where I would be staying while in country.

More and more technology isn't the answer. More and more intrusive physical probing isn't the answer. The answer is politically-incorrect PROFILING.

MH
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[skyrider 0]

Quote

Quote

Yes. And if you want Granny felt up, they're the ones to do it. If you ever fly on an El Al flight in Europe you'll see examples of that.

We need to get farther from the example set by the Israelis, not closer.

I've flown on El Al, and nobody felt me up. However, I was questioned about who I was, where I was from, where I was going, where I would be staying while in country.

More and more technology isn't the answer. More and more intrusive physical probing isn't the answer. The answer is politically-incorrect PROFILING.

MH
.

The facts of life are a bite in the ass sometimes!

[billvon 3,080]

>More and more technology isn't the answer. More and more intrusive
>physical probing isn't the answer.

I agree.

>The answer is politically-incorrect PROFILING.

No, the answer is applying intelligence to the problem, not ignorance, obstinance and racism. NW's article contained some good explanations of the differences between profiling and actually solving the problem.

[BIGUN 1,424]

The ACLU is ramping up with requests for information...

https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=watchlist_survey&JServSessionIdr011=5itmt3qbe1.app26a

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[ridestrong 1]

Pat-downs when used should be done thoroughly and professionally. If there is anyone anywhere that is performing a pat-down in an unprofessional manner then they should be fired. However, a proper pat-down does require checking all areas including the groin and chest, but it can still be done professionally and by a same sex agent. Regardless, even when done professionally 100% of the time there will always be someone that feels as though they were 'violated'.

EVERYONE who goes to a Broncos game at Mile-Hi stadium gets a pat-down before entering. If you don't wish to be patted down then you don't go to the game. Same should go for flying a private airliner.

There is no reason why there can't be a thorough screening process that can be implemented professionally for all to abide by. Whether it be at the airport, a stadium event or otherwise.

The pat-down may not be the best method for a body search, but something does need to be in place.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[skyrider 0]

Quote

Pat-downs when used should be done thoroughly and professionally. If there is anyone anywhere that is performing a pat-down in an unprofessional manner then they should be fired. However, a proper pat-down does require checking all areas including the groin and chest, but it can still be done professionally and by a same sex agent. Regardless, even when done professionally 100% of the time there will always be someone that feels as though they were 'violated'.

EVERYONE who goes to a Broncos game at Mile-Hi stadium gets a pat-down before entering. If you don't wish to be patted down then you don't go to the game. Same should go for flying a private airliner.

There is no reason why there can't be a thorough screening process that can be implemented professionally for all to abide by. Whether it be at the airport, a stadium event or otherwise.

The pat-down may not be the best method for a body search, but something does need to be in place.

Walk lock step...no one will bother you!

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Now would be a good time to write your Senator if he or she is on the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. That committee has a hearing on Wednesday, November 17 on TSA Oversight.

Hearing:
http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Hearings&ContentRecord_id=9ad9e372-c415-4758-805a-4b4a295ccb8b&ContentType_id=14f995b9-dfa5-407a-9d35-56cc7152a7ed&Group_id=b2afa036-c20d-49ae-9211-b5ef8d7ea62d

Committee members:
http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=CommitteeMembers

It's Congress that's going to have to take some action on "security theater" because apparently the TSA believes it has the backing of the courts. (That ruling came about before the latest TSA rules which seem to say "You can get an xray or you can get a full body pat-down, but once we decide you have to get one, you have no other options."

http://consumerist.com/2010/11/you-might-be-in-serious-for-refusing-to-be-tsa-screened.html

Here's but one example of a guy who tried to opt out in a very calm and reasonable manner ... this is his direct account; it's also gotten a ton of media attention in the last couple days.
http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/these-events-took-place-roughly-between.html

Let your Senator know what you think about security theater.

Just a reminder ... this post wasn't another "let's whine about TSA" thread ... it's a "take some fucking action" thread. Even if you think it won't do any good ... do something. Call or email your senator, or one of the members of the committee.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 5]

Quote

>Isn't this current debacle in our airports the perfect analogy for what
>happens when you give the government free reign . . .

Basically yes.

>I'm not the kind of person to hold up the example of the Israelis lightly,
>but their government has this down to an art form.

Yes. And if you want Granny felt up, they're the ones to do it. If you ever fly on an El Al flight in Europe you'll see examples of that.

We need to get farther from the example set by the Israelis, not closer.

I'm not sure where this belief comes from. I fly El Al with some regularity. I've never had my groin touched, even as recent as a couple months ago.
I've had a bad experience at Ben Gurion, but it wasn't in feeling me up. It was electronic gear-related.

Sweden has an excellent record and system, and it's as psychological as anything.

I hate the full body scanners, mostly because I've heard a couple TSA people (skydivers) making comments about penis and breasts they see, and a general disdain for people that dont' like the security procedures.

IMO, I'd *much* rather fly in Singapore, Israel, Sweden, Bahrain than fly in the USA. Less intrusive, more professional, and you know you're not dealing with a minimum wage moron that couldn't find a job anywhere else.

[billvon 3,080]

>I'm not sure where this belief comes from. I fly El Al with some regularity.

Flew it three times; strip searched twice. Camera opened once (and film removed) because the battery was dead and they couldn't verify it was really a camera.

Of course that was a long time ago (1995 or so.) They may have improved since then.

>and you know you're not dealing with a minimum wage moron
>that couldn't find a job anywhere else.

That may be the big difference.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Same should go for flying a private airliner.

Considering all the federal subsidies and tax breaks the airlines see, find me a "private airliner".

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DSE 5]

Quote

Quote

We need to get farther from the example set by the Israelis, not closer.

Interesting article on that topic. It's a year old but still relevant.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4ce0361af7973d2e%2C0

thank you for that link. It well-describes the experiences I've had in the airports mentioned previously.

With all the TSA security breaches, I wonder how long it'll take for some TSA guy/gal to create a reel of "look what I see at work" and post it anonymously on YouTube?

Please write your representatives? It only takes a few minutes and doesn't need to be lengthy.

[BikerBabe 0]

time to start looking into amtrak...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[mnealtx 0]

http://lifehacker.com/5690402/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-tsa-screenings-and-gropings

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jgoose71 0]

Quote

>The answer is politically-incorrect PROFILING.

No, the answer is applying intelligence to the problem, not ignorance, obstinance and racism. NW's article contained some good explanations of the differences between profiling and actually solving the problem.

Scenario: An Arab gets asked "How are you from and where are you coming from?"

He answers "I'm doing OK, I'm coming from Palestine." and then starts to dance around nervously. He gets pulled aside and searched.

According to the article, this is how Israeli security works. Do you honestly think that groups here in the U.S. wouldn't scream "profiling?"

The fact of the matter is, even though they ask "where are you coming from" instead of "what nationality are you" or "what is your race" groups in the U.S. would call that profiling. That is why measures like these are not hear in the U.S. Anything that allows someone to make a "judgment call" is taken out of the equation.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 3,080]

>Scenario: An Arab gets asked "How are you from and where are you
>coming from?"

>He answers "I'm doing OK, I'm coming from Palestine." and then starts to
>dance around nervously. He gets pulled aside and searched.

>According to the article, this is how Israeli security works. Do you honestly
>think that groups here in the U.S. wouldn't scream "profiling?"

Of course there would be. Half a dozen Arab groups would be on TV the next day. Heck, if a Christian got pulled aside just before the holidays, Bill O'Reilly would start screaming "WAR ON CHRISTMAS!"

But what you describe is not racial profiling; it's common sense. The problem arises when people just assume that all terrorists are Arabs. Here are two quotes from right here on Speaker's Corner defending profiling:

"No one's suggesting that we relax security at all, just that we be a bit more wary of young, arab males."

"Well, what about the "extra" security check that you could "randomly" get at the airport. A bit inconvenient, but not terrible. What's wrong with sending the Arab guy through there and not the grandma?"

That's the approach that's problematic.

>Anything that allows someone to make a "judgment call" is taken out
>of the equation.

Agreed - and that's because we design the system to the lowest common denominator, which is the low-wage guy standing by the scanner waving people through. We'd have to get serious about getting good people - and paying them accordingly.

[nigel99 574]

Quote

"No one's suggesting that we relax security at all, just that we be a bit more wary of young, arab males."

Do you have a problem with that approach? I mean seriously the most probable terrorist attach is going to be a young male Muslim. While I sympathise with the plight of the very many innocent young male Muslims that would be inconvenienced why waste resources searching Grandma Jones?

Similarly I have no problem with young western travellers being treated as a higher risk of being drug mules and the appropriate level of checks being in place.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

"No one's suggesting that we relax security at all, just that we be a bit more wary of young, arab males."

Do you have a problem with that approach? I mean seriously the most probable terrorist attach is going to be a young male Muslim. While I sympathise with the plight of the very many innocent young male Muslims that would be inconvenienced why waste resources searching Grandma Jones?

The problem is when it's applied in a way such that all young Arab males are put into one security line and all grandmas are put into another.

It's the dialogue and the observation and well-trained analysis that you see from Israeli security that is lacking in the U.S. - the ability to read body language, and voice, and affect and put together a risk picture that's more sophisticated than "brown guy = bad guy."

Quote

Similarly I have no problem with young western travellers being treated as a higher risk of being drug mules and the appropriate level of checks being in place.

A few years ago (pre-9/11) I went on a little weekend jaunt by myself on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington. My car broke down and I wound up stuck for a couple days in Port Angeles, WA. There's not a lot to do there without a car, so I hopped on the passenger ferry to Victoria, BC for the day.

Coming back into the U.S., the agents asked me a lot of questions, and were *really* curious about why I had only gone up for the day and why I didn't have my passport with me (this was back when you could go to Canada from the U.S. w/o a passport). I probably fit a profile of someone who might be carrying drugs back from BC "young, traveling alone, day trip" but through asking more questions and getting reasonable (and relaxed) answers from me (and taking a look through my backpack), they got the full story (stuck in town, trip was unplanned, etc.) and could make a judgment that I wasn't bringing drugs after all and let me go on my way.

That's the kind of conversation and judgment that's lacking in our security procedures today.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke