Tell me again why alcohol should be legal and pot shouldn't be.

[rnicks 0]

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And the way I see it, I don't give a fuck about someone causing harm to their own body, that's their issue. And who is anyone to tell someone they must stop doing coke because they may harm themselves.

Good point. However the majority of people who wind up in the ICU do not have medical coverage. Then it is the hospital who eats the cost of thousands of dollars. This effects everybody.

[rnicks 0]

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And, if you don't think coke is fun, you haven't tried it.

No, I haven't tried it. But according to your previous post, you don't do drugs either. So, which is it??

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I am actually in favor of legalizing it, but you are fooling yourself if you think weed is harmless and fooling yourself if you think it is okay to be operating a vehicle under the influence of weed. Alcohol makes drivers speed up while weed makes them slow down. Both are dangerous since you want everyone traveling the same speeds not have these huge variations. Plus weed tends to bring on the dreaded "treadmill" effect while you drive where the stoned driver gets the impression they are not moving and instead it's only the scenery that is moving. Been there done that.

Yes I say legalize it, but don't ever think it is not harmful.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[doughboyshred 0]

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And, if you don't think coke is fun, you haven't tried it.

No, I haven't tried it. But according to your previous post, you don't do drugs either. So, which is it??

I am completely sober at this point in my life. I don't use any drugs, but I have done a lot of drugs.

Cocaine was one of my favorites for a couple years. I actually preferred crack. Crystal meth doesn't do anything for me. Opium was too much of a downer. MDMA was great fun. I loved LSD and mushrooms. Especially LSD. Ate that shit like candy for a few years. Pot was my thing though. Especially hash and hash oil. Took a long time to get past that.

[pirana 0]

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As I've stated before, I don't use anything, but support legalization of all drugs.

Visit any ICU and see the effects cocaine has and I bet you change your mind.

People who see the ER/trauma center horrors of cocaine certainly see the horrors of alcohol too.

So, back to the original post question:

Why is alcohol legal? If legality is to be decided based on ER and trauma center horror stories, then alcohol, guns, autos, living in the worst ghettos, sending soldiers to combat, skydiving, etc, etc should all be illegal.

But that is unfair baiting because we all know that what is legal or illegal has not much to do with actually proving safety or danger - it has to do with cultural norms, politics, and acceptance of perceived risk.

Otherwise cigarettes would have been banned 30 years ago.

So go ahead and cherry-pick your Utopia, everybody's will be different.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Amazon 7]

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As I've stated before, I don't use anything, but support legalization of all drugs.

Visit any ICU and see the effects cocaine has and I bet you change your mind.

So, you think alcohol should be illegal, or do the effects of drunk driving not bother you at the same ICU?

Ah yes.. only dopers can OD and end up in the ICU


My only decent step brother died from an alcohol overdose. The macho little shit did not realize you could actually die from trying to "be a man" and try to drink another guy under the table.

The only problem was Donny was getting straight Vodka from the bar tender but the bar tender was giving watered down shots to his buddy so he would "win".

The bar keep did time in jail eventually but I would rather have seen him get the same overdose to see how he felt about alcohol.

[Andy9o8 2]

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As I've stated before, I don't use anything, but support legalization of all drugs.

Visit any ICU and see the effects cocaine has and I bet you change your mind.

Well then logically, by precisely the same metric, riding motorcycles should be outlawed.

It's a choice: in a (more or less) free society, one adult's unacceptable risk is another adult's acceptable risk. Your A license, for example, bears witness to that.

[rnicks 0]

Without hearing maybe other relevant details, I'm surprised the bartender did time. Sounds like your brother chose to drink the shots.

[nanook 1]

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As I've stated before, I don't use anything, but support legalization of all drugs

There will be more "recreational" users.

It affects other peoples' lives. Users tend to congregate together and create nodes that spill over to neighboring areas.

Property values decline.

They don't pay rent on time. You lose your ability to support your family because they don't pay you to live there and they destroy the walls and chase paying customers away. No rent and you have to pay for damages. They don't pay attention to the No drugs clause on the Lease. You can't sue them. Recreational users usually live paycheck to paycheck. No personal responsibility. Soon you only can get those types to live there. You can't sell the place. You take a loss.

They tend to get fired. Then you have to evict them.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[rnicks 0]

Good point. But I bed alot more accident victims of motorcycle riding carry insurance to cover their hospital bills.

But I get the gist of your argument.

[doughboyshred 0]

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As I've stated before, I don't use anything, but support legalization of all drugs

There will be more "recreational" users.

It affects other peoples' lives. Users tend to congregate together and create nodes that spill over to neighboring areas.

Property values decline.

They don't pay rent on time. You lose your ability to support your family because they don't pay you to live there and they destroy the walls and chase paying customers away. No rent and you have to pay for damages. They don't pay attention to the No drugs clause on the Lease. You can't sue them. Recreational users usually live paycheck to paycheck. No personal responsibility. Soon you only can get those types to live there. You can't sell the place. You take a loss.

They tend to get fired. Then you have to evict them.

I think it's debatable whether there will be more recreational users. All one has to do is look at drug usage stats in the netherlands to see that argument is not necessarily true.

Your other arguments, are legit, but have more to do with the socioeconomic status of most illegal drug users than with the drug use itself.

[nanook 1]

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I think it's debatable whether there will be more recreational users. All one has to do is look at drug usage stats in the netherlands to see that argument is not necessarily true.

Your other arguments, are legit, but have more to do with the socioeconomic status of most illegal drug users than with the drug use itself

There are "soft drug" enforcement rules v.s "hard drugs". They still deal harshly with importation or exportation of hard, and some soft, drugs. Netherlands is only a good example of not enforcing cannabis possession. (The Netherlands pulled back their number of establishments allowed to serve MJ) It's not a good example legalizaiton.

As far as the social economic status of the drug users, this is my primary concern. Drug use in itself doesn't bother me, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum and users rich or poor tend to become someone else's problem. People don't have to be poor to skip payments. Not all recreational users are considered "poor", but I have had problems with middle class types also.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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i find it funny when someone says "I haven't done single drug but I think all should be legal."

I definitely don't want to have crack head or meth head as my neighbor.

If I'm going to have a meth-head as a neighbor, I'd rather he be buying his product cheap at the corner 7-11 instead of risking explosions and toxic contaminations next to my property cooking it himself.

If I'm going to pay for my crack smoking neighbor's habit indirectly, I'd rather it be through an inexpensive out-patient program than $43,000 a year (unless he's a juvenile in which case was $216,000 as of 2008) for incarceration.

If those sorts of people are going to be in my neighborhood, I'd rather they have cheap product they can afford with whatever job they keep or even a government handout that costs less than prison rather than turn to burglary and robbery to pay for their fix.

If those sorts of people are going to be doing those drugs, I'd rather they be getting consistent, controlled doses of unadulterated drugs so they're less likely to end up dead on my door step.

This is also assuming that the numbers of addicts would increase which has not been proven. Use of _every_ drug was down in Portugal in the five years following decriminalization although it was up in the rest of the EU.

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Social effects of Meth and Crack is way higher than Alchohol.

The worst social effects come from the drugs being illegal.

British boffins would also disagree, recently finding "While heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine were all found to be more dangerous to individuals, alcohol was largely shown to be more dangerous to others. This seemed to be due to the fact that the drug is often the source of automobile accidents and violent incidents."

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the writer must been on meth and crack for days and nights to say that heroin is safer than alcohol.

Heroin is only a significant safety problem because it's illegal. The illicit sales channels don't tell addicts how much the product has been cut (leading to accidental over-doses), addicts use dirty needles because they can't buy clean ones, and the product is sometimes cut with more dangerous substances.

[beowulf 1]

Not to mention the dealers and smugglers willing kill to protect their territories or shipments. If the drug trade wasn't so lucrative then it wouldn't be worth killing for. All due to them being illegal.

Making drugs illegal only created a black market for them. It doesn't stop or even reduce their use. If there is a demand then there will be people willing to supply that demand, regardless of the consequences.

[beowulf 1]

To add some more to this...

The reality is we as a society need to come to the realization that there will always be a drug problem. There will always be people dependant on some type of drug whether that drug is medically necessary or recreational. The real issue is how should we deal with recreational drug use.

Making the drugs illegal has done nothing but create a very lucrative black market. Along with that black market comes violence and crime.

By realizing that there will always be a portion of society that will become addicted to recreational drugs we can work to regulate and deal with the issue in a non violent fashion. In doing so we work to minimize the impact on society.

[kelpdiver 2]

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As I've stated before, I don't use anything, but support legalization of all drugs

There will be more "recreational" users.

It affects other peoples' lives. Users tend to congregate together and create nodes that spill over to neighboring areas.

Property values decline.

They don't pay rent on time. You lose your ability to support your family because they don't pay you to live there and they destroy the walls and chase paying customers away. No rent and you have to pay for damages. They don't pay attention to the No drugs clause on the Lease. You can't sue them. Recreational users usually live paycheck to paycheck. No personal responsibility. Soon you only can get those types to live there. You can't sell the place. You take a loss.

They tend to get fired. Then you have to evict them.

recreational use in San Francisco is pretty rampant - I don't expect it to change measurably if prop 19 passes. Somehow the landlords manage, as do the employers.

[dgskydive 0]

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More plausible reasons are that hemp threatened DuPont's paper market revenues, InBev does not want the competition (Anheuser-Busch was a Partnership for a Drug Free America contributor), and the California Correctional Peace Officers Association prison guards' union wants full employment.

DING DING DING!!!!! We have a winner. Especially the part about Dupont. The Cotton industry has one of the biggest lobbying forces in D.C. They do not want hemp cutting into their profits.

Dom

[rhys 0]

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Why don't I want meth neighbors???
Cause I wanna keep my garage door open unattended time to time??? and not worry about shit missing???

why do you thin people steal stuff when they are on meth?

They steal stuff because it is illegal and highly addictive, this pushed the price up, so they need more, and with no money they tend to steal other peoples property to get the funds to purchase it.

So now you have goods and revenue in the black market making illegal drug cartels very influential, leading to much worse crimes like murder to defent their powerful position.

If it was legal, the price would be low, the crack heads would not have to steal to get it, and the vicious circle would be broken.

This is a similar scenario to what happened with alcohol prohibition.

You are too 'inside the square', and need to think about thigs little more in depth.

Propoganda is the reason you think the way you do, not reason.

Hemp, has much more benifits to our society and ecology than , cotton, crude, plastic etc...

I bet you don;t even think about that?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[nanook 1]

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recreational use in San Francisco is pretty rampant - I don't expect it to change measurably if prop 19 passes. Somehow the landlords manage, as do the employers.

Just because you don't hear about landlording issues doesn't mean that they are "managing" well. Drug evictions, complaints, and forum advice is a lot more noiser up there than the So Cal area.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,090]

>They don't pay rent on time. You lose your ability to support your family
>because they don't pay you to live there and they destroy the walls and
>chase paying customers away. No rent and you have to pay for damages.
>They don't pay attention to the No drugs clause on the Lease. You can't sue
>them. Recreational users usually live paycheck to paycheck. No personal
>responsibility. Soon you only can get those types to live there. You can't
>sell the place. You take a loss.

Sounds like a skydiver ghetto . . .

[masterrig 1]

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Why don't I want meth neighbors???
Cause I wanna keep my garage door open unattended time to time??? and not worry about shit missing???

why do you thin people steal stuff when they are on meth?

They steal stuff because it is illegal and highly addictive, this pushed the price up, so they need more, and with no money they tend to steal other peoples property to get the funds to purchase it.
____________________________

Meth tends to 'increase' the tendency to steal.
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So now you have goods and revenue in the black market making illegal drug cartels very influential, leading to much worse crimes like murder to defent their powerful position.

If it was legal, the price would be low, the crack heads would not have to steal to get it, and the vicious circle would be broken.
_____________________________

Would you really want to see meth and crack legalized?
_____________________________
This is a similar scenario to what happened with alcohol prohibition.

You are too 'inside the square', and need to think about thigs little more in depth.

Propoganda is the reason you think the way you do, not reason.

Hemp, has much more benifits to our society and ecology than , cotton, crude, plastic etc...
________________________

How do you figure? Please, enlighten us!

__________________________

I bet you don;t even think about that?

!


Chuck

[beowulf 1]

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Would you really want to see meth and crack legalized?

By having them illegal doesn't help the situation. Usage isn't going down. As long as there is a demand there will be suppliers, legal or illegal.

I would rather spend money regulating the meth and crack problem instead of paying for more police, prisons and dealing with the added violence.
We are not winning or even making any progress in this war on drugs. It's time to change the strategy and accept that there will always be drugs and people addicted to them. We need to deal with the problem instead of attempting to get rid of the problem.

[nanook 1]

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Sounds like a skydiver ghetto . . .

Nope. Got nothing. You win.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

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Would you really want to see meth and crack legalized?

By having them illegal doesn't help the situation. Usage isn't going down. As long as there is a demand there will be suppliers, legal or illegal.

I would rather spend money regulating the meth and crack problem instead of paying for more police, prisons and dealing with the added violence.
We are not winning or even making any progress in this war on drugs. It's time to change the strategy and accept that there will always be drugs and people addicted to them. We need to deal with the problem instead of attempting to get rid of the problem.

I'll agree with you on the 'war on drugs'.
I'm just curious as to how the public would deal with those addicted to meth or crack or heroin, considering the violent tendencies those drugs heighten? Would they be treated like someone 'drunk in public' or DWI? Would those addicted really, have the where-with-all to purchase it? Would crime really be reduced? Rather than tax-payer money going to prisons, would it go for clinics to help addicts? Would the criminal element really be out of the equation?


Chuck

[Andy9o8 2]

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why do you thin people steal stuff when they are on meth?

Because they can squeeze through the little space under the door.