Integration vs. Multi-Culturalism

[wmw999 2,586]

I'll give you my perspective. Having all that influx over the last 400+ years has made a lot of Americans flexible and adaptable. They had to be, either as immigrants, or as residents dealing with the influx.

If you take away the necessity to change, by demanding that all of the immigrants do all of the changing, then the "locals" will pretty naturally get stale and set in their (cultural, social, etc) ways, and be less able to deal with the changes that other external forces, such as technology and the economy, bring. Not unable, but less able.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

I love threads where people have different interpretations of the same word and then fight out who's read on it is better.

no,
wait,

I hate that

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Expecting people to "Integrate" into the dominant society is deemed as racist.

So everybody in Boston should be a little Irish?

[billvon 3,111]

>Can you explain how this makes us stronger?

The blending of many cultures gives us a more vibrant culture than we'd have than if we stuck with our original imported (i.e. British) culture.

As a very simple example, US breweries are now making good money making Belgian beers. One common one, Blue Moon, is made by Coors and has done very well. That's an example of an economic benefit realized by adopting a foreign style of drink.

Imagine the economic impact to the dining, clothing and entertainment industries if we removed every non-US influence from our society. It would be catastrophic.

[Nightingale 0]

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Seems like people are against integration these days.

Expecting people to "Integrate" into the dominant society is deemed as racist.

You know, when we can actually define a dominant society here, maybe people might want to think about integration.

[champu 1]

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I love threads where people have different interpretations of the same word and then fight out who's read on it is better.

no,
wait,

I hate that

Haha, I was just thinking the same thing.

It's pretty clear that some posters are talking about keeping the US a predominately monolingual nation, some posters are worried about people from a certain religion not respecting separation of church and state as their population grows, and some posters are deliberately ignoring those concerns and talking about food and music.

So, in turn...

I work with highly educated first and second generation folks from all over the world and the mix of personalities and strong suits is both refreshing and useful. As a hat tip to skeptics, however, it is worth noting that we all speak English.

I have, apparently, more confidence in the strength of our system of government than those that are worried about certain religous laws ending up on the books. (at least on the national level... the simple majority ballot measure constitutional amendment thing we have in California is sooooo broken.)

While I do enjoy the great Korean, Japanese, Indian, Peruvian, Vietnamese, Pakistani, etc. food living in SoCal allows, I don't really consider that anything but a superficial level of integration. You have to start somewhere though.

[rehmwa 2]

I think it's a big pile of crap.

If we define ourselves as a nation of individuals and forget the cosmetic crap and the false pride called culture - then we have a whole bunch of very cool individuals surrounding us. I don't care if the 10 people around me are all from the same neighborhood, or from 10 very different countries.

If you get to know each of them, you'll find the 10 are just as diverse for each scenario in the things the really matter.

the country's 'culture' will be whatever it will be

Though I am a fan of just picking one 'official' language for the sake of communication and $$$.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

There have been a bunch of studies on language acquisition in the US. What usually happens is that the first generation learns enough to get by. Shopping, basic conversation, stuff like that. They're not going to write a novel in English, and they're probably going to be more comfortable around others who speak their primary language. The second generation is bi-lingual, because they learn English from their playmates, but they serve as translators for their parents. The third generation can't have a meaningful conversation with their grandparents.

[rehmwa 2]

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There have been a bunch of studies on language acquisition in the US. What usually happens is that the first generation learns enough to get by. Shopping, basic conversation, stuff like that. They're not going to write a novel in English, and they're probably going to be more comfortable around others who speak their primary language. The second generation is bi-lingual, because they learn English from their playmates, but they serve as translators for their parents. The third generation can't have a meaningful conversation with their grandparents.

that's neat, but I don't see why a bunch of 'studies' needed to be done on it when it's pretty much right out there for anyone to see

I think the generational transition to the core language would be stunted if too much assistance is offered so the kids don't have to learn. Isn't 2-3 generations long enough?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

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I hear this a lot. Can you explain how this makes us stronger?

Sure...

Nutrition is important, and we have more options. Just downstairs, I have to choose between Chinese food, Greek food, Mexican food, Japanese food, Italian food, Lebanese food, and Irish food (hey, Guinness has vitamins!).

Multiculturalism is good! And tasty!

[Nightingale 0]

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I think the generational transition to the core language would be stunted if too much assistance is offered so the kids don't have to learn. Isn't 2-3 generations long enough?

Actually, studies indicate this isn't the case. We're better off providing educational support in the primary language so the student doesn't fall too far behind academically, while also providing tools to learn English. What they should NOT be is isolated in "ESL" classes where they are kept from English speakers.

When it comes to withholding support in an effort to force someone to learn a language, you have to be very careful that it doesn't negatively impact a student's academic progression while they learn. For example, if I gave you a chemistry test written in Swedish, you may be a PhD chemist, but if you don't know Swedish, you're still gonna fail the test.

There's a phenomenal school here in Los Angeles called Edison Academy. Charter school providing true bilingual education in English/Spanish. Half the kids are native English speakers, while the other half speak Spanish at home. By sixth grade, 100% of the student body is 100% bi-lingual. The English speakers now know Spanish, and the Spanish speakers are fluent in English. And academic test scores are very high.

[happythoughts 0]

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I'll give you my perspective. Having all that influx over the last 400+ years has made a lot of Americans flexible and adaptable. They had to be, either as immigrants, or as residents dealing with the influx.

If you take away the necessity to change, by demanding that all of the immigrants do all of the changing, then the "locals" will pretty naturally get stale and set in their (cultural, social, etc) ways, and be less able to deal with the changes that other external forces, such as technology and the economy, bring. Not unable, but less able.

Wendy P.

When I go to work, I work with people in my immediate
group of 6 nationalities on a daily basis.
The expectation at work is that they can conform to
the basic needs of the company.
A list of technical skills and the ability to fluently communicate
in English.
It is not my responsibility to learn Russian, Hindi, Laotian (?),
Chinese, and Portuguese to work with them.

Integration into a society is the ability to function as an adult.
If I moved to France, I would be the immigrant, and it
would not be an unreasonable expectation that I should
learn to communicate in French to get a job.

Being able to make a mean pizza or a tasty beer at home may be nice,
but it is not a primary requirement to get a job.
For almost everyone, beer is not a central theme of life - food, clothing, and shelter for the family is.

If 90% of a country communicates in one language,
then newcomers need to acquire that as a skill or
they are will be hindered in education and employment.

The new country is not punishing them, they are
excluding themselves.

[happythoughts 0]

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Seems like people are against integration these days.

Expecting people to "Integrate" into the dominant society is deemed as racist.

You know, when we can actually define a dominant society here, maybe people might want to think about integration.

For "dominant" language, I define it as the language
that the government uses for its communications,
the educational system uses in 95% of its classrooms,
and 90% of business functions are performed with.

When people move to the US from (example) Kenya,
it is reasonable that they learn English, not the entire
US population learning Kenyan.

This is reasonable on the basis of cost-effectiveness alone, considering the number of different languages
that immigrants speak.

I believe that there are many English Language Learner (ELL) programs in the US for just the purpose of aiding these people.

[skipbelt 0]

why won't these immigrants just integrate , and quit being intolerant of multi...
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/no_20101018_2792.php

[rehmwa 2]

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For example, if I gave you a chemistry test written in Swedish, you may be a PhD chemist, but if you don't know Swedish, you're still gonna fail the test.

But if I move to Sweden and fail to get a job in chemistry because I won't learn Swedish, then I'm responsible for that, not the Swedish government.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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When it comes to withholding support in an effort to force someone to learn a language,

also a bad interpretation of the comment - no one said withholding learning support. This is more along the lines of enabling no learning to be and acceptable option.

Your school example is bi-lingual, not anti-english (or whatever twisted version of english we use in the US)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

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For example, if I gave you a chemistry test written in Swedish, you may be a PhD chemist, but if you don't know Swedish, you're still gonna fail the test.

But if I move to Sweden and fail to get a job in chemistry because I won't learn Swedish, then I'm responsible for that, not the Swedish government.

Absolutely. But you are not required to work. We do require school attendance, and if we are going to require it, we need to at least provide an environment with an opportunity for success.

[rehmwa 2]

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We do require school attendance, and if we are going to require it, we need to at least provide an environment with an opportunity for success.

if I have a PhD in Chemistry, why would the country require me to go to school?

this is just a discussion about having a primary language and doing government stuff under that language to allow integration to happen rather than stagnate -

assistance to learn = good,

absence of any requirement to learn the primary language = bad

(so this addresses, multi language voting booths, DMV, etc, etc etc)


Edit: How's your political run going so far?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Shouldn't you first select an official language? Now you are just saying that people have to conform to the majority...how very un-american from you!!

[skipbelt 0]

why are the afghanis and pakistanis having so many integration problems ?

[Nightingale 0]

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We do require school attendance, and if we are going to require it, we need to at least provide an environment with an opportunity for success.

if I have a PhD in Chemistry, why would the country require me to go to school?

Edit: How's your political run going so far?

If you were Doogie Howser over there, here they'd still want to make you get a GED in English.

As for politics, still trying to refrain from stealing the signs.

[Nightingale 0]

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Your school example is bi-lingual, not anti-english (or whatever twisted version of english we use in the US)

We don't speak English. We speak American. And Californians do have an accent. We just think we don't because it's the same one everyone on television uses.

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Can you explain how this makes us stronger?

The blending of many cultures gives us a more vibrant culture than we'd have than if we stuck with our original imported (i.e. British) culture.

As a very simple example, US breweries are now making good money making Belgian beers. One common one, Blue Moon, is made by Coors and has done very well. That's an example of an economic benefit realized by adopting a foreign style of drink.

Imagine the economic impact to the dining, clothing and entertainment industries if we removed every non-US influence from our society. It would be catastrophic.

Influence is COMPLETELY different than integration.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,111]

>Influence is COMPLETELY different than integration.

Cultures influence each other all the time. When an aspect of another's culture is incorporated into one's own culture, that aspect is said to be integrated into one's culture. (And vice versa, of course.)

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Influence is COMPLETELY different than integration.

Cultures influence each other all the time. When an aspect of another's culture is incorporated into one's own culture, that aspect is said to be integrated into one's culture. (And vice versa, of course.)

going back a bit, since this thread has morphed a bit. It wasn't originally about food.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun