67 years of street cred - climate dood quits, sez its all a big load!

[lawrocket 3]

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There was a time, several hundred years ago, when it was thought that the world was flat and most of the population, scholars and scientist of the time believed it.

There were a few (probably different number than your 200 out of 47,000 example) that went against the popular thinking by saying the earth is round. Those people were ostracized and some jailed because they went against popular belief.

I guess things really don't change much.

There's are differences and things have changed. Back then, there were observations made with state of the art equipment that were explained to the best of the present ability. Versus today, where observations are made with state of the art equipment that are explained to the best of the present ability.

Back then, there were paradigms based upon the consensus belief of the time and knowledge passed down, and resistance to changes in what has been understood. Today, there are paradigms based upon the consensus belief of the time and knowledge passed down, and resistance to changes in what has been understood.

Back then, there were powerful interests with much to lose in terms of power, money and influence should the teachings and knowledge be shown to be incorrect. Today, there are powerful interests with much to lose in terms of power, money and influence should the teachings and knowledge be shown to be incorrect.

Back then, there were eminent scientists and philosophers who debated not only the science but the implications and the preferred policies regarding the science. Today, there are eminent scientists and philosophers who debate not only the science but the implications and the preferred policies regarding the science.

Back then, your were either with the paradigm or against it, and being against it meant you would be ostracized. Today, your are either with the paradigm or against it, and being against it means you will be ostracized.

Back then, there was not the recognition of history of man's ognorance of human foibles and abilities to be wrong. Today there is recognition of the history of man's errors in explaining matters in the past, despite their best efforts, replacing ignorance with arrogance at the development of human understanding and an abundance of confidence in infallibility of modern human understanding and explanation.

So there is a huge difference. Back in the past they didn't have a long history of being wrong. We have that now.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jakee 1,596]

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There was a time, several hundred years ago, when it was thought that the world was flat and most of the population, scholars and scientist of the time believed it.

No. This is absolutely untrue.

Firstly, the roundness and circumference (to a surprisingly high degree of accuracy) of the earth was first figured out over 2,000 years ago.

Secondly, for this and any other "most scientists in the old days thought blah" point that you might want to make - these mistaken people were not scientists. They were not practicing what we would recognise as modern science, they were not following any valid scientific method and rigorous peer review did not exist.

That is not to say that there were no genuine scientists, just that without exception the silly old theories that people like to drag up (to imply that someday current scientific knowledge may seem just as stupid) really have nothing to do with actual science.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skipbelt 0]

in a month or so i'm gonna start asking for some climate change . outside of my climate controlled home . anybody willing to trade ?

[timmyfitz 0]

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There was a time, several hundred years ago, when it was thought that the world was flat the center of the universe and most of the population, scholars and scientist of the time believed it.

No. This is absolutely untrue.

Firstly, the roundness and circumference (to a surprisingly high degree of accuracy) of the earth was first figured out over 2,000 years ago.

Sorry, I meant to write that the earth was considered the center of the universe several hundred years ago (or more). I got the flat earth idea stuck in my head (instead of center of the universe) and went with it.






______________________________________________________________________________________________________
"1981 to 1988 is 7 years"-Kallend (oops, it's actually 8 years Kallend)

The decade of the 80's was from 1980 to 1989. 10 years. If you remove 1980 and 1989 you have 1981 to 1988. 8 years.

[skipbelt 0]

yes and now many consider global warming / climate change , whatever disingeuous term is being used as fact. this despite any evidence to the contrary . some even have created carbon exchange businesses to profit from it. the global climate didn't get the memo. these carbon exchange hucksters don't seem to have pure noble altruistic motives either !

[futuredivot 0]

Dammit son! Haven't you been listening to Quade at all? Dollars driving science is ONLY bad when it's energy company dollars. As long as it's traditionally liberal hands in the till-it's all good.


Glad I could clear that up for you.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[skipbelt 0]

thanks for clearing that up. how many others would be as honest in their analysis ?

[skipbelt 0]

deniers vindicated , climate doesn't get memo again , this time adding to multiyear trend.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/8061737/Snow-to-hit-Britain.html

[quade 4]

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climate doesn't get memo again

This is why things have needed to be reworded a bit to climate change.

The issue is that 1 or 2 degrees of increase changes weather patterns pretty severally. In some instances, this will mean droughts in areas that have previously been wet and floods in areas that have previously been dry. It also means historic swings in both hot and cold. Previously warmer areas may indeed have historically cold snaps and snowy condition where previously this was unheard of in modern times.

But . . . just keep on denying.

Meanwhile, I'm going to get a rocket together to send my kid "Kal-El" to another planet.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

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deniers vindicated , climate doesn't get memo again , this time adding to multiyear trend.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/8061737/Snow-to-hit-Britain.html

You really do not get the whole climate thing at all do you.

Put more energy into the system... get out real nasty effects like more moisture and shifts in the old NORMAL weather patterns.

[mnealtx 0]

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climate doesn't get memo again

This is why things have needed to be reworded a bit to climate change.

The issue is that 1 or 2 degrees of increase changes weather patterns pretty severally. In some instances, this will mean droughts in areas that have previously been wet and floods in areas that have previously been dry. It also means historic swings in both hot and cold. Previously warmer areas may indeed have historically cold snaps and snowy condition where previously this was unheard of in modern times.

Makes a nice catch-all to keep the scam going, I suppose.

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But . . . just keep on denying.

But . . . just keep on blowing smoke.

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Meanwhile, I'm going to get a rocket together to send my kid "Kal-El" to another planet.

You do that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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deniers vindicated , climate doesn't get memo again , this time adding to multiyear trend.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/8061737/Snow-to-hit-Britain.html

You really do not get the whole climate thing at all do you.

Put more energy into the system... get out real nasty effects like more moisture and shifts in the old NORMAL weather patterns.

And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skipbelt 0]

amazon , please , not you falling for this scam , the mods here i get why they would fall for it , but you , not you , it's gonna take some of the delight out of tearing down this hoax. !

[quade 4]

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And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Are you denying that some glaciers that have existed for the entire span of recorded human history are just recently melting before our eyes?

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Are you denying that some glaciers that have existed for the entire span of recorded human history are just recently melting before our eyes?

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html

Nope, sure aren't - but you certainly seem to be inferring that those same glaciers have never exhibited any melting.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Are you denying that some glaciers that have existed for the entire span of recorded human history are just recently melting before our eyes?

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html

I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

[airdvr 210]

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And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Are you denying that some glaciers that have existed for the entire span of recorded human history are just recently melting before our eyes?

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html

I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

40 years? Only blue state pea brains would be so fucking arrogant to think they have that much effect on things.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[mnealtx 0]

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I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

Sweet - can we go see the *growing* Shasta glaciers or the *growing* Alaska glaciers, too?

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This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

You mean the ice that has had a 25% increase in volume since 2008?

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For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

And for many of the blue state posters...it's evidently a case of "Hey, Koolaid!!!"

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For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

Ah, your normal "logic" in play again, I see - anyone that isn't in the Glo-BULL warming camp is obviously in favor of strip-mining and open landfills.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Are you denying that some glaciers that have existed for the entire span of recorded human history are just recently melting before our eyes?

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html

I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

40 years? Only blue state pea brains would be so fucking arrogant to think they have that much effect on things.

Riiiiight... are all flatlanders so completely clueless as to assume that they can go on dumping shit into the air... and into the water... and have no effect on how we live??????????????????

40 years is a pretty damn short time span in the life of those mountains.. yet in that short time period... the glaciers are gone.

You might as well rename one national Park in Montana to Glacially Affected National Park because the glaciers that were there 100 years ago when it was set aside and named.... are for all intents and purposes. GONE

[quade 4]

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And melting glaciers!!! (In 15-20k years, that is)

Are you denying that some glaciers that have existed for the entire span of recorded human history are just recently melting before our eyes?

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html

Nope, sure aren't - but you certainly seem to be inferring that those same glaciers have never exhibited any melting.

Well, you don't get to be a glacier overnight. It does take a bit of time.

Sure, pretty much the entire US was covered in ice at one time. That said, it was a hell of a LONG time ago and well before humans could write about it. Then, conditions clearly stabilized enough for lots of very interesting things to happen and stayed that way for a very long time.

Suddenly, within the last 150ish or so years, temperatures have shot up.

If that's not due to the huge population growth of the human species and industrialization of the planet, I'd sure as hell would like to know what it is.

There are precisely two and only two possibilities here;

1) It's due to humans.
2) It's due to something else.

The issue I have is if it's due to humans we HAVE to do something about it because we as a species will not be able to adapt to the rapid change. We have barely the logistical capability to take care of the +6 billion people on the planet right now. Tossing in floods and droughts royally screws that over. Wars will result. Civilization as we know it may actually cease to exist. Oh, the planet will go on . . . but humans as a whole are very much in danger because of this potential change.

Ok, so what if it has nothing whatsoever to do with humans? What if, as has been suggested by some, that it's just a "natural" increase in temperatures?

Well, I guess an asteroid destined to hit the planet would also fit into the category of a "natural" way to end human civilization, but . . .

We are now in a position where we -might- be able to do something about it.

FFS, at least stop making it worse.

And the issue really is that some people just want to protect their status quo. Well, the status definitely isn't going to be quo -- it's absolutely delta -- there is no question whatsoever the status of the planet is changing.

You can, as some will, argue that it's not man made. So what? Are you just going to sit there and let it happen without ANY attempts at fixing it? None? Are you seriously not concerned for the health of the planet and situation you leave your DNA in? Really? Just screw the grand kids?

That's what I'll never understand about the deniers. Never. You can't even get them into the room to talk about it. The minute you mention the subject, boom, denial mode kicks in and they don't even want to discuss the possibility of at least fixing what we may be able to. At least mitigating the issues as much as possible so that humanity continues.

Typically they don't see past their own generation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

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I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

Sweet - can we go see the *growing* Shasta glaciers or the *growing* Alaska glaciers, too?

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This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

You mean the ice that has had a 25% increase in volume since 2008?

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For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

And for many of the blue state posters...it's evidently a case of "Hey, Koolaid!!!"

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For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

Ah, your normal "logic" in play again, I see - anyone that isn't in the Glo-BULL warming camp is obviously in favor of strip-mining and open landfills.

Next they are going to say that it is just a vast right wing conspiracy to let the oceans cover up NY and CA and their liberals and sink them under the ocean.

I say that is a good option.

I mean, whatever, what's a little extra ocean rise - the world changes, and it will always change. Get over it. EVEN IF the whole GW thing is true. Is the planet going to die? No. Will life adapt? Yes.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

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I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

Sweet - can we go see the *growing* Shasta glaciers or the *growing* Alaska glaciers, too?

Quote

This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

You mean the ice that has had a 25% increase in volume since 2008?

Quote

For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

And for many of the blue state posters...it's evidently a case of "Hey, Koolaid!!!"

Quote

For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

Ah, your normal "logic" in play again, I see - anyone that isn't in the Glo-BULL warming camp is obviously in favor of strip-mining and open landfills.

You keep trotting out the same tripe from the same sites over and over Mike... WISHING that somethign is true.. does not make it so.


10 years ago the place I like to ski.. got 120 foot of snow... Normally it averages only about 55 foot.

AGain.. when you add energy into the system... more evaporation.. more moisture... and voila more snow... in a few localized areas.. lik Mt Baker and Mount Shasta.... BUT... overall... it has NOT translated to the picture overall. even with more moisture... and more snow in winter in the high country...It melts faster every year. Th eNet result.. is the glaciers all over the west and in the arctic... are going away.

[turtlespeed 226]

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I have offered to take Mikkee up to areas in the High Cascades that I have been climbing for 40 years now... and show him what is left of glaciers we used to play on doing ice climbs. now those glaciers are non existant or nothing more than snowfields in early summer... which dissappear in July or Aug.

Sweet - can we go see the *growing* Shasta glaciers or the *growing* Alaska glaciers, too?

Quote

This is not the Arctic.. where the ice is going away even faster.

You mean the ice that has had a 25% increase in volume since 2008?

Quote

For many of the red state posters... its a case of out of sight.. out of their pea brain minds.

And for many of the blue state posters...it's evidently a case of "Hey, Koolaid!!!"

Quote

For those that live in major urban areas that burn your eyes so often like Houston... I think its even more insideous... they live in a fucking polluted cesspool... so why not have everyone else live that way too.

Ah, your normal "logic" in play again, I see - anyone that isn't in the Glo-BULL warming camp is obviously in favor of strip-mining and open landfills.

You keep trotting out the same tripe from the same sites over and over Mike... WISHING that somethign is true.. does not make it so.


10 years ago the place I like to ski.. got 120 foot of snow... Normally it averages only about 55 foot.

AGain.. when you add energy into the system... more evaporation.. more moisture... and voila more snow... in a few localized areas.. lik Mt Baker and Mount Shasta.... BUT... overall... it has NOT translated to the picture overall. even with more moisture... and more snow in winter in the high country...It melts faster every year. Th eNet result.. is the glaciers all over the west and in the arctic... are going away.

The life in the ocean was here long before the life on the land - they were here first and have the say whether or not we should stop the melting anyway. lets ask them. When they can ansewr us, then they can tell us what steps to take to correct it to their wants and needs.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[lawrocket 3]

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The issue is that 1 or 2 degrees of increase changes weather patterns pretty severally.

Yep. Which is why these winter conditions were seen seventy years ago when weather patterns changed, leading to a period of relative stability that models show ended in about 1978 (but actually have kept on going). So let's take a look at 1930's-1940's weather/climate and say, "if this same weather repeats, I mean exactly the same (right down to 134 outside of Baker, CA) would it be hailed as proof of AGW?

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In some instances, this will mean droughts in areas that have previously been wet and floods in areas that have previously been dry.

That's called "stasis." But "stasis" sounds so...so...so... boring. We need to bulk it up with a few disasters to attribute.

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It also means historic swings in both hot and cold.

True. Some place like Browning, Montana might see a 100 degree temperature change within a 24 hour period. Or a 49 degree temperature increase in just two minutes in someplace like Spearfish, North Dakota. Or even 100 feet of snow i none year on Mt. Rainier.

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Previously warmer areas may indeed have historically cold snaps and snowy condition where previously this was unheard of in modern times.

True. We may find days like July 10, 2010 where the high temperature at LAX was a mere 67 degrees - breaking all records.

The problem, Paul, is the attribution of EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WEATHER PHENOMENON to AGW. We have average weather? Ohhhh. Consistent with AGW. We have record cold. Yep. Just what we'd expect. Record heat? We told you this would happen and it'll get much worse. Drought? AGW causes it. Floods? Yep. AGW. Average rainfall?
Hurricanes? We haven' had US landfall since Ike in 08. "Well, climate change means that there is a change, making weather prediction less reliable. This will cause millions of deaths due to crop loss and inundation."

AGW is the "God Hates Fags" version of a unified theory of all that goes badly.

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But . . . just keep on denying.

I will not stop denying that we are not seeing the results we've been told to expect for the last twenty years.

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Meanwhile, I'm going to get a rocket together to send my kid "Kal-El" to another planet.

Is the rocket named "Kel-Al?"

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

Color me confused.. but one would think that "conservatives" would want to conserve our climate as it is and keep the planet in the state that has supported our species and allowed us to create this civilization.. rather than being on the cutting edge of changing it to the point that will make it harder for our species to exist.

I guess the cesspool analogy is working overtime,