SecDef Gates Says "Too Few Bear Burdens of War"

[Amazon 7]

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think EVERYONE should have to serve their country

Wow...who's against freedom now?

...and they say christians live in a fantasy world forcing their belifs on everyone.

SO you like so many others feel there is something wrong with a concept I learned as a child... its called.. EARNING your keep.

I am one of those who believed what President Kennedy asked all of us.

Too many Americans are asking what is my country going to do for me...and fuck if I will do anything for my country.

[kelpdiver 2]

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SO you like so many others feel there is something wrong with a concept I learned as a child... its called.. EARNING your keep.

some of us see more than one way to earn that keep.

[Amazon 7]

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SO you like so many others feel there is something wrong with a concept I learned as a child... its called.. EARNING your keep.

some of us see more than one way to earn that keep.

Yeah... and as Gordon Gecko said... Greed is good... and apparently, now it is legal.

[turtlespeed 226]

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Too many Americans are asking what is my country going to do for me...and fuck if I will do anything for my country.

I understand the comment, but it sounds like it is off base - doing something for you country would so subjective.

Not trying to anger or piss you off. Just that doing for your country does not mean running the healthcare and such into the ground.

Voting for that process is in and of it's self, damaging to the country.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 2]

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I am one of those who believed what President Kennedy asked all of us.

"Bobby? Send that broad over heah."

[skipbelt 0]

your concept of freedom goes quite far , it contradicts your assertion indians were free. they warred regularly , they were slaves to hunting and gathering , to the seasons , to clothing , to parenting . to traditions , to the spirits , to disease . they really couldn't do anything they wanted , anytime they wanted , for as long as they wanted , could they ?

[Amazon 7]

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Too many Americans are asking what is my country going to do for me...and fuck if I will do anything for my country.

I understand the comment, but it sounds like it is off base - doing something for you country would so subjective.

Not trying to anger or piss you off. Just that doing for your country does not mean running the healthcare and such into the ground.

Voting for that process is in and of it's self, damaging to the country.

WRONG

You do realize that the rePUBLICtards you elect... want the same program... just get rid of the EVIL EVIL stuff that those in the pulpits object to.



They are the ones who sold out the country... to Wall Street.. and the top 1%... you know.. those who benefit the most.. and do the least for America.

[Andy9o8 2]

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your concept of freedom goes quite far , it contradicts your assertion indians were free. they warred regularly , they were slaves to hunting and gathering , to the seasons , to clothing , to parenting . to traditions , to the spirits , to disease . they really couldn't do anything they wanted , anytime they wanted , for as long as they wanted , could they ?

You almost had me sucked in to seriously rebutting point by point by point by point.

[Coreece 190]

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SO you like so many others feel there is something wrong with a concept I learned as a child... its called.. EARNING your keep.

Do you accept everything that parochial school taught you?

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Too many Americans are asking what is my country going to do for me...and fuck if I will do anything for my country.

We did it for them sugar momma...not ourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgkYN3QjD5M

*edit*

I'm sorry, but I don't trust them with my country.

*Further edit*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNEhVqykYU

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Darius11 12]

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maybe we should reduce our inclination to enter into optional wars until it matches the number of people who want to fight wars.

Hallelujah

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[skipbelt 0]

all wars are optional , no one has to fight !

[fossg 0]

Sounds good to me

[kelpdiver 2]

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all wars are optional , no one has to fight !

unless you live in Poland.

[fossg 0]

Point well taken

[Guest]

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>A good start would be the finance the war directly . . . by an additional yearly tax.

That would be an excellent idea. I think a lot of people would think twice about supporting a war if they knew that, within six months, they'd get hit with a $1000 bill for it.

Unless one could apply it in lieu of federal income tax.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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I would prefer all volunteer - but it were to be done, then it has to be equally applied. Now, if you do volunteer - the I'm all for that group getting something above and beyond the others in terms of ownership in the country - voting rights maybe....

Starship Troopers was a good book and all, but that concept was and still is repugnant and stupid.

A lot of this discussion reminds me of the ancient Spartans. You might remember them - they were the ones who placed a premium upon elitism, so much so that they became totally inbred and went genetically bankrupt.

Universal conscription isn't a panacea - it's always unevenly (and quite unfairly) applied. It's one of the major reasons it was done away with.

The majority of people who advocate it appear to do so out of a "punitive" attitude; e.g., "you're going to give something back or else."

This tends to imply a non-zero-sum game; id est, that someone, simply by existing, owes something either to the state or to someone else. Neither of these is compatible with a democratic society.

Another poster put it succinctly: we need to right-size our military, and get more for our money. A universal draft won't help that. To the contrary, it will injure the goal. We don't need cannon fodder in uniform - we need the bravest, toughest and smartest - we won't get them by drafting them. More bodies in uniform won't help us beat Hadjii - we're simply not fighting that kind of war. we're in an asymmetric struggle where our numbers and our military power don't count for much. Sure, a volunteer military isn't cheap, but it's the right way to do things.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rhaig 0]

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Starship Troopers was a good book and all, but that concept was and still is repugnant and stupid.

A lot of this discussion reminds me of the ancient Spartans. You might remember them - they were the ones who placed a premium upon elitism, so much so that they became totally inbred and went genetically bankrupt.

Universal conscription isn't a panacea - it's always unevenly (and quite unfairly) applied. It's one of the major reasons it was done away with.

The majority of people who advocate it appear to do so out of a "punitive" attitude; e.g., "you're going to give something back or else."

This tends to imply a non-zero-sum game; id est, that someone, simply by existing, owes something either to the state or to someone else. Neither of these is compatible with a democratic society.

Another poster put it succinctly: we need to right-size our military, and get more for our money. A universal draft won't help that. To the contrary, it will injure the goal. We don't need cannon fodder in uniform - we need the bravest, toughest and smartest - we won't get them by drafting them. More bodies in uniform won't help us beat Hadjii - we're simply not fighting that kind of war. we're in an asymmetric struggle where our numbers and our military power don't count for much. Sure, a volunteer military isn't cheap, but it's the right way to do things.

mh
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ah... so you never read the book. you saw the movie of the same title.

in the book it's well explained that in exchange for a term of federal service (any federal service, including office work, not just military) you received your citizenship and voting rights. It's called having skin in the game.

--
Rob

[Guest]

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Starship Troopers was a good book and all, but that concept was and still is repugnant and stupid.

A lot of this discussion reminds me of the ancient Spartans. You might remember them - they were the ones who placed a premium upon elitism, so much so that they became totally inbred and went genetically bankrupt.

Universal conscription isn't a panacea - it's always unevenly (and quite unfairly) applied. It's one of the major reasons it was done away with.

The majority of people who advocate it appear to do so out of a "punitive" attitude; e.g., "you're going to give something back or else."

This tends to imply a non-zero-sum game; id est, that someone, simply by existing, owes something either to the state or to someone else. Neither of these is compatible with a democratic society.

Another poster put it succinctly: we need to right-size our military, and get more for our money. A universal draft won't help that. To the contrary, it will injure the goal. We don't need cannon fodder in uniform - we need the bravest, toughest and smartest - we won't get them by drafting them. More bodies in uniform won't help us beat Hadjii - we're simply not fighting that kind of war. we're in an asymmetric struggle where our numbers and our military power don't count for much. Sure, a volunteer military isn't cheap, but it's the right way to do things.

mh
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ah... so you never read the book. you saw the movie of the same title.

in the book it's well explained that in exchange for a term of federal service (any federal service, including office work, not just military) you received your citizenship and voting rights. It's called having skin in the game.

You are misinformed. Like many, I read the book in my youth.

I disagree with the Heinlein's notion that in order to be eligible to be a citizen with full rights, one is obliged to perform military service. It's a totalitarian regime's attitude, not that of a free people. We are fortunate that there are those who will volunteer anyway, even if it is for personal gain (hey - that's called a "two-way street", as opposed to "skin in the game").

Those who expect "the others" to cheerfully volunteer to get shot at and blown up gratis (or "For a soldier I listed, to grow great in fame. And be shot at for sixpence a day.") had better think again.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rhaig 0]

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ah... so you never read the book. you saw the movie of the same title.

in the book it's well explained that in exchange for a term of federal service (any federal service, including office work, not just military) you received your citizenship and voting rights. It's called having skin in the game.

You are misinformed. Like many, I read the book in my youth.

I disagree with the Heinlein's notion that in order to be eligible to be a citizen with full rights, one is obliged to perform military service. It's a totalitarian regime's attitude, not that of a free people. We are fortunate that there are those who will volunteer anyway, even if it is for personal gain (hey - that's called a "two-way street", as opposed to "skin in the game").

Those who expect "the others" to cheerfully volunteer to get shot at and blown up gratis (or "For a soldier I listed, to grow great in fame. And be shot at for sixpence a day.") had better think again.

mh
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[jakee 1,594]

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in the book it's well explained that in exchange for a term of federal service (any federal service, including office work, not just military) you received your citizenship and voting rights. It's called having skin in the game.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong.

In the book it is well explained that federal service must be military in order to qualify. You don't need to be assigned to a frontline unit, but you must be in the military, running the risk of being put in harms way.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rhaig 0]

Well even if it had to be military service, that doesn't amount to universal conscription.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I still think voters would be better off having motivation to educate themselves more about their candidates if they understood how the government works.

--
Rob

[Guest]

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Well even if it had to be military service, that doesn't amount to universal conscription.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I still think voters would be better off having motivation to educate themselves more about their candidates if they understood how the government works.

Having spent time in both regimes (military and civil service), I can guarantee you that they won't learn a lot. They'll be just another cog in the big machine. I think a better way for people to learn about how government works is to try it for themselves; e.g., campaign for a public office (at the local level). Helping people govern themselves is perhaps the best thing a public servant can do for constituents. Alas, human nature being what it is, we seldom get the best or the brightest. To paraphrase Reagan, they're not in government - they're out making their bank.

mh
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mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Andy9o8 2]

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To paraphrase Reagan,

Seriously? That's your model?

[Guest]

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To paraphrase Reagan,

Seriously? That's your model?

Model? What do you mean?

I was paraphrasing him because I could not recall the direct quote, but he said that we don't get the best minds in government, we get the least-common denominator. The best are busy elsewhere, and have better things to do. I don't blame them, and I agree with the observation, not necessarily with the originator.

Here's another great quote: "You are far more likely to meet an IRS agent than you are to meet someone whom you voted for." Now tell me that's not truth.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kallend 2,146]

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To paraphrase Reagan,

Seriously? That's your model?

Model? What do you mean?

I was paraphrasing him because I could not recall the direct quote, but he said that we don't get the best minds in government, we get the least-common denominator. The best are busy elsewhere, and have better things to do. I don't blame them, and I agree with the observation, not necessarily with the originator.

Here's another great quote: "You are far more likely to meet an IRS agent than you are to meet someone whom you voted for." Now tell me that's not truth.

mh
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Not true for me. I've met 4 US Senators and the only time I ever met an IRS agent was when I went to the office for advice.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.