HC not too far, didn't go far enough.

[doughboyshred 0]

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They wanted and STILL WANT to reduce the exposure to law suits and put a large Tort reform in place to lower costs. THAT is where it all needs to start.

Reduce the costs of the services and overhead and then the costs go down for competition.

That would do nothing to help the uninsured, and would have little to no effect on rising health care costs. It would also do nothing to affect rising health insurance premiums.

It's a nice politically convenient sound bite though.

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

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The health economists and independent legal experts who study the issue, however, don’t believe that’s true. They say that malpractice liability costs are a small fraction of the spiraling costs of the U.S. health care system, and that the medical errors that malpractice liability tries to prevent are themselves a huge cost– both to the injured patients and to the health care system as a whole.

[skipbelt 0]

the vast majority of uninsured want to be . the number 40mil was thrown around . after further review 20 mil were 25 to 30 and HC was a very low priority. after probing the remaining we discovered 11 to 20 mil illegals uninsured. another canard and disingenuous argument by the libs to advance their socialist utopia .

[doughboyshred 0]

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after further review 20 mil were 25 to 30 and HC was a very low priority.

Yes, it is a low priority for them, which is why they end up going to the emergency room and getting care which costs the taxpayers much more in the long run. This is why there had to be a mandate for coverage. A lot of people, especially the young, don't think about health coverage until they need it.

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after probing the remaining we discovered 11 to 20 mil illegals uninsured. another canard and disingenuous argument by the libs to advance their socialist utopia

Wow! More illegal immigrants are uninsured than there are in the country. Amazing.

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The Department of Homeland Security reported that illegal immigrant population dropped to 10.8 million in 2009 compared to 11.6 million in 2008. It was the second consecutive annual decline and the largest in at least three decades.

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non-citizen immigrants were far more likely to be uninsured (43.6 percent uninsured)

It's not a matter of desiring a socialist utopia. It's a matter of common sense financial reality.

[skipbelt 0]

at present no one (except you) knows the illegal population . by definition it is almost impossible ( except for you) to quantify . estimates range from 11 to 20mil !

[doughboyshred 0]

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at present no one (except you) knows the illegal population . by definition it is almost impossible ( except for you) to quantify . estimates range from 11 to 20mil !

Department of Homeland Security claims 11 million.

Census bureau claims less than 45% are uninsured.

That's all irrelevant though. This is not a discussion about immigration. It's a discussion about reigning in the cost of health care in this country and how that can be done. Currently immigrants (legal and illegal) without insurance still can get care at the ER. The cost of this is exorbitant and the tax payer typically gets saddled with the cost in some way or another. It seems illogical to me to rant about providing a path for illegals to get health coverage, when that could lower the cost that we pay for their health care.

If you believe they should be left in the street to die because they didn't fill out the proper paperwork to be here, then there is nothing worthwile to discuss with you.

[mnealtx 0]

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If you believe they should be left in the street to die because they didn't fill out the proper paperwork to be here, then there is nothing worthwile to discuss with you.

Yes, of course, because ANYONE that isn't in favor of Obamacare is in favor of people being 'left in the street to die'.

If that's all you can bring as an argument, you might as well stop now.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[doughboyshred 0]

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If you believe they should be left in the street to die because they didn't fill out the proper paperwork to be here, then there is nothing worthwile to discuss with you.

Yes, of course, because ANYONE that isn't in favor of Obamacare is in favor of people being 'left in the street to die'.

If that's all you can bring as an argument, you might as well stop now.

Reading comprehension, it's a dying art.

That comment was in direct response to the concern about illegal immigrants getting health care coverage.

They are here, that's not the debate.

They either get health care coverage through the emergency room or through insurance, or they are denied health care.

Which do you prefer? Which is most economical for the taxpayer? Which is morally reprehensible?

[turtlespeed 226]

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Reading comprehension, it's a dying art.

You better give yours some CPR then.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skipbelt 0]

you seem oblivious to a valid 3rd option !

[Lucky... 0]

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you seem oblivious to a valid 3rd option !

Yea, come on guys, get with it; just let nature take it's place and kill people for very treatable conditions. That's it , preach Jebus and compassion, act with disregard, malice and be sociopathic in regard to human suffering. The people have seen that and have spoken, just look at the political make-up.

[Lucky... 0]

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If you believe they should be left in the street to die because they didn't fill out the proper paperwork to be here, then there is nothing worthwile to discuss with you.

Yes, of course, because ANYONE that isn't in favor of Obamacare is in favor of people being 'left in the street to die'.

If that's all you can bring as an argument, you might as well stop now.

What's your solution for people w/o HC who cannot afford it?

[airdvr 210]

Still waiting for you to show me where in that article the math works out 2:1. I'm guessing I'll be waiting awhile.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rhaig 0]

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They either get health care coverage through the emergency room or through insurance, or they are denied health care.

Which do you prefer? Which is most economical for the taxpayer? Which is morally reprehensible?

well by current law they get in through the ER for free. and going forward, if they don't buy healthcare, they will get taxed an extra ... wait? what do you mean they don't pay taxes? so they'll get it for free anyway... ok, then either they get it for free through the ER, or they get it free through the ER.

what was your point again?

--
Rob

[futuredivot 0]

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What's your solution for people w/o HC who cannot afford it?

What's your solution for those that can afford it but choose to prioritize something else?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[loumeinhart 0]

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What's your solution for people w/o HC who cannot afford it?

avoid being forced to pay for them myself

Their current solution(s) are medicare, medicaid, and the free clinics.

[Southern_Man 0]

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If you believe they should be left in the street to die because they didn't fill out the proper paperwork to be here, then there is nothing worthwile to discuss with you.

Yes, of course, because ANYONE that isn't in favor of Obamacare is in favor of people being 'left in the street to die'.

If that's all you can bring as an argument, you might as well stop now.

What's your solution for people w/o HC who cannot afford it?

Honestly, I am in favor of people who choose not to prioritize their own health care being left in the street to die. I am against the mandatory treatment provisions of current law.

I just think that people should be responsible for their own choices and if they choose not to buy insurance and cannot pay in cash then they should not expect treatment.

I am not opposed to some level of social safety net, however, I just think the levels which this has reached are unsustainable.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[doughboyshred 0]

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. wait? what do you mean they don't pay taxes? so they'll get it for free anyway... ok, then either they get it for free through the ER, or they get it free through the ER.

what was your point again?

Nonsense. It's been clearly documented that illegal immigrants pay taxes. Typically they pay the same taxes most employees due but they don't file for refunds. Most undocumented workers use fake ss numbers to get employment, so they are taxed. They are also taxed through sales tax mechanisms, etc.. Suggesting they don't pay taxes is disingenuous.

My point, however, is that refusing to treat them is morally wrong, and therefore not an option. Providing them help to obtain insurance is cheaper for the tax payer than providing them with ER care. This doesn't really matter though, because Republicans were able to ensure that the HCR bill didn't provide any insurance options for illegals.

[doughboyshred 0]

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Honestly, I am in favor of people who choose not to prioritize their own health care being left in the street to die. I am against the mandatory treatment provisions of current law.

I just think that people should be responsible for their own choices and if they choose not to buy insurance and cannot pay in cash then they should not expect treatment.

I am not opposed to some level of social safety net, however, I just think the levels which this has reached are unsustainable.

So a family with a child that is fighting leukemia should be kicked out on the street to watch their child die, if they lose their job and can't find a new one in 3 months that provides health insurance that will cover their childs pre existing condition?

Having a system like you suggest would be horrible for our society. The ranks of the homeless and sick would multiply drastically. The effects on our economy would be staggering.

[Southern_Man 0]

people would make different choices if the incentives were different.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[doughboyshred 0]

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people would make different choices if the incentives were different.

Losing a job is not a choice, and health coverage for a family of four would cost over a thousand dollars a month in most instances. A loss of income due to the financial issues the entire country is facing should not result complete destitution and loss of life.

[rhaig 0]

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Nonsense. It's been clearly documented that illegal immigrants pay taxes. Typically they pay the same taxes most employees due but they don't file for refunds. Most undocumented workers use fake ss numbers to get employment, so they are taxed. They are also taxed through sales tax mechanisms, etc.. Suggesting they don't pay taxes is disingenuous.

sales tax isn't the mechanism through which they'd be charged if they were to not buy the mandatory insurance package that will be required.

they use fake SSN's so if they don't pay their federal income tax, who is the IRS going after? Some poor schmoe who is the victim of identity theft.

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My point, however, is that refusing to treat them is morally wrong, and therefore not an option. Providing them help to obtain insurance is cheaper for the tax payer than providing them with ER care. This doesn't really matter though, because Republicans were able to ensure that the HCR bill didn't provide any insurance options for illegals.

current law (in TX at least) ensures that the ER cannot turn anyone away. so I'm not saying turn them away, I'm pointing out that they can't be turned away.

what insurance options would HCR have provided that couldn't be provided by a private insurance company?

so I still ask... if, when mandatory insurance purchases come into effect, an illegal immigrant doesn't purchase their insurance, how are they going to be charged the penalty for that? Through their income taxes that are levied against a fake SSN?

--
Rob

[billvon 3,114]

>people would make different choices if the incentives were different.

So the looming death of someone's child is not a strong enough incentive? What would you suggest as a stronger incentive?

[turtlespeed 226]

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people would make different choices if the incentives were different.

Losing a job is not a choice, and health coverage for a family of four would cost over a thousand dollars a month in most instances. A loss of income due to the financial issues the entire country is facing should not result complete destitution and loss of life.

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Losing a job is not a choice

Losing a job is a choice - evidently the person working the job did not work hard enough to make the job important enough to keep. I should not be forced to be responsible for other peoples failures and inadequacies.

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health coverage for a family of four would cost over a thousand dollars a month in most instances

Insurance costs are not a 1000/mo - BASIC coverage which is what the goverment is touting is only about 300 dollars per month. Less if you only go with major medical.

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A loss of income due to the financial issues the entire country is facing should not result complete destitution and loss of life.

Why should I be forced to give up the money that I worked for to support someone that cannot keep a job? I should not be forced to be responsible for other peoples failures and inadequacies.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,114]

>Why should I be forced to give up the money that I worked for to
>support someone that cannot keep a job?

Same reason I am forced to give money - money I worked for - to support your desire for roads.

[doughboyshred 0]

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Nonsense. It's been clearly documented that illegal immigrants pay taxes. Typically they pay the same taxes most employees due but they don't file for refunds. Most undocumented workers use fake ss numbers to get employment, so they are taxed. They are also taxed through sales tax mechanisms, etc.. Suggesting they don't pay taxes is disingenuous.

sales tax isn't the mechanism through which they'd be charged if they were to not buy the mandatory insurance package that will be required.

they use fake SSN's so if they don't pay their federal income tax, who is the IRS going after? Some poor schmoe who is the victim of identity theft.

Quote

My point, however, is that refusing to treat them is morally wrong, and therefore not an option. Providing them help to obtain insurance is cheaper for the tax payer than providing them with ER care. This doesn't really matter though, because Republicans were able to ensure that the HCR bill didn't provide any insurance options for illegals.

current law (in TX at least) ensures that the ER cannot turn anyone away. so I'm not saying turn them away, I'm pointing out that they can't be turned away.

what insurance options would HCR have provided that couldn't be provided by a private insurance company?

so I still ask... if, when mandatory insurance purchases come into effect, an illegal immigrant doesn't purchase their insurance, how are they going to be charged the penalty for that? Through their income taxes that are levied against a fake SSN?

Income taxes are withheld from their paychecks. They don't file for refunds.

Tax penalty for not obtaining health coverage comes out of the refund, which they are not filing for in the first place.