Israel used 'incredible violence' against Gaza aid flotilla

[skipbelt 0]

i'm very pro semitic , but i do know alot of jew jokes , some quite tasteless !

[obelixtim 150]

Armed men boarding ships in international waters is commonly known as piracy. Thats what they call it off the horn of Africa.

Killing people on those ships when they had no business boarding them in the first place could well be called murder.

Israel does itself no favours by these actions.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[skipbelt 0]

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Armed men boarding ships in international waters is commonly known as piracy. Thats what they call it off the horn of Africa.
Killing people on those ships when they had no business boarding them in the first place could well be called murder.
Israel does itself no favours by these actions.

ships crossing a blockade of a nations waters is commonly known as an act of war !

[futuredivot 0]

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Israel does itself no favours by these actions.

Aside from a smidge fewer bullets that will be tossed their way-one or two murders of their citizens that may happen-a handful of bombs that won't get built.....other than that, Right?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Andy9o8 2]

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Armed men boarding ships in international waters is commonly known as piracy. Thats what they call it off the horn of Africa.

Killing people on those ships when they had no business boarding them in the first place could well be called murder.

Israel does itself no favours by these actions.

As a matter of international law, you are simply wrong. Its legal status is "blockade", under the 1909 Declaration of London, as updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

According to international law, this blockade was, as required, formally declared to belligerent and neutral states; it is permitted to be conducted in international waters, and it can be enforced by military action, in international waters, by the blockading nation, either against non-state actors or against state actors.

The running of a formal blockade by either a state actor or a state-sponsored actor is generally considered to be an act of war committed by the blockade-running and/or sponsoring state against the blockading state. The running of a formal blockade by a non-state actor is still considered to be a hostile act against the blockading state, enabling the blockading state to use military force to enforce it.

As for the degree of force used by (a) the boarding Israelis and (b) the ship's passengers, this was debated in a previous thread in June, with links to videos. The videos, when unedited, pretty much speak for themselves.

[mnealtx 0]

Seems a lot of people are still unfamiliar with the San Remo manual.

Ships engaging in humanitarian missions *are* exempt from attack, however, to gain that exemption:

They have to be 'innocently employed in their normal role' - I submit that carrying a load of people that had already declared their willingness to become martyrs isn't a 'normal role' of a humanitarian mission.

They have to 'submit to identification and inspection when required' - I think we all know that the flotilla didn't do this.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[obelixtim 150]

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ships crossing a blockade of a nations waters is commonly known as an act of war !

But in this case, the flotilla was NOT in Israeli waters, nor had it crossed the line...and these were not military ships carrying a military force. And their intentions were quite clear. An assault force does not broadcast its intentions to the world.

Besides I'm sure the Israeli navy was more than capable of stopping a flotilla of merchant ships, as soon as it crossed that line...a shot across the bows would have sufficed if the flotilla actually breached the line.

Spin it any way you like. These ships were in international waters. Israel was out of line.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[skipbelt 0]

seemingly not !

[muff528 3]

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ships crossing a blockade of a nations waters is commonly known as an act of war !

But in this case, the flotilla was NOT in Israeli waters, nor had it crossed the line...and these were not military ships carrying a military force. And their intentions were quite clear. An assault force does not broadcast its intentions to the world.

Besides I'm sure the Israeli navy was more than capable of stopping a flotilla of merchant ships, as soon as it crossed that line...a shot across the bows would have sufficed if the flotilla actually breached the line.

Spin it any way you like. These ships were in international waters. Israel was out of line.

OOPS! ...you must have skipped completely over Andy's post #130 above.

[obelixtim 150]

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They have to 'submit to identification and inspection when required' - I think we all know that the flotilla didn't do this.

Immediately prior to the boarding, were the ships called upon to stop by the Israeli navy?. I thought the boardings caught them by surprise.

As for video/photographic evidence, why were communications jammed and all cameras and recording equipment carried on the vessels confiscated by the IDF, unless they had something to hide.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Andy9o8 2]

You're deliberately ignoring the legal facts clearly set out in posts #130 & 131, and in doing so, you're blowing it out your ass.

[turtlespeed 226]

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ships crossing a blockade of a nations waters is commonly known as an act of war !

But in this case, the flotilla was NOT in Israeli waters, nor had it crossed the line...and these were not military ships carrying a military force. And their intentions were quite clear. An assault force does not broadcast its intentions to the world.

Besides I'm sure the Israeli navy was more than capable of stopping a flotilla of merchant ships, as soon as it crossed that line...a shot across the bows would have sufficed if the flotilla actually breached the line.

Spin it any way you like. These ships were in international waters. Israel was out of line.

Although Skip is incorrect - I think you should not ignore this post.

I know they are easy to glace over when you are replying. I just wanted to make sure you have all the information though before you continue on touting innacuracies.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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You're deliberately ignoring the legal facts clearly set out in posts #130 & 131, and in doing so, you're blowing it out your ass.

See! I tried to tell him!!

I was trying to be nice about it and this is what he eventually ends up with.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[mnealtx 0]

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They have to 'submit to identification and inspection when required' - I think we all know that the flotilla didn't do this.

Immediately prior to the boarding, were the ships called upon to stop by the Israeli navy?. I thought the boardings caught them by surprise.

From an article shortly after the incident:

"Last week, Israel said if the ships docked at an Israeli port first, it would allow the full shipment of humanitarian cargo to reach Gaza, after undergoing security checks. Israeli officials have for days warned that they wouldn't let the flotilla reach port in Gaza. Organizers said they would ignore the warning an try to break the blockade."

and

"He said the boarding took place after the flotilla ignored calls to change course and head away from the Gaza coast. During the boarding, passengers on five of the ships resisted passively and peacefully, he said.

But on the Mavi Marmara, with about 600 passengers, the IDF encountered "difficult violence," Gen. Benayahu said. Dozens of activists attacked Israeli soldiers with steel clubs and knives as the soldiers were being lowered onto the deck from helicopters, he said. "

So, evidently the flotilla *was* offered at least two different opportunities to 'submit to identification and inspection'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[obelixtim 150]

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You're deliberately ignoring the legal facts clearly set out in posts #130 & 131, and in doing so, you're blowing it out your ass.

I'm asking questions which you seem to find offensive, hence resorting to your comments.

Why does the IDF not release videos and photos taken by the flotilla crews?. Perhaps they show the IDF members fired first and the flotilla crews were defending themselves....as some of the flotillas members allege.

The ships of the flotilla were NOT full of people intent on martyrdom.....there were many peace activists from many different nations. They were intent on delivering aid, which was what the Israeli authorities found when they inspected the ships.

The only video seen was that issued by the IDF, which conflicts with the reports of some of those on board the ships. As such video of the incident only shows one POV.

I am not the kind of person who blindly swallows one line of argument. I THINK the IDF overreacted, and the disproportionate casualty figures during the incident suggest this to me.

I'm aware the Israel apologists will never see any other POV, and that is one of the reasons Israel will live in paranoid fear for ever. Fanatics on both sides are entrenched.

The US could do a hell of a lot more to bring an end to the conflict, but it just doesn't seem to be in the interests of certain sections of US society.

The world outside Israel and the US continue to shake their heads at the ongoing nonsense.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[turtlespeed 226]

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The only video seen was that issued by the IDF, which conflicts with the reports of some of those on board the ships. As such video of the incident only shows one POV.

You never saw the video where the activists stated on video that they were going to incite violence?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[muff528 3]

[reply........ I'm asking questions which you seem to find offensive, hence resorting to your comments.

Why does the IDF not release videos and photos taken by the flotilla crews?. Perhaps they show the IDF members fired first and the flotilla crews were defending themselves....as some of the flotillas members allege.

Perhaps the purpose of the videos was to create propaganda. Perhaps the IDF does not want to publicize tactical information showing how they do "things". Could be useful to future "martyrs".


The ships of the flotilla were NOT full of people intent on martyrdom.....there were many peace activists from many different nations. They were intent on delivering aid, which was what the Israeli authorities found when they inspected the ships.

Precedent there, too ....Hiding behind innocents is not new for some "martyrs".

The only video seen was that issued by the IDF, which conflicts with the reports of some of those on board the ships. As such video of the incident only shows one POV.

I'm sure the videos probably do conflict with the perpetrators' stories. "A picture is worth 1000 words". But I suppose you could keep on looking at videos until you find one you agree with. Having said that, My mind could be changed if actual evidence is shown.

I am not the kind of person who blindly swallows one line of argument. I THINK the IDF overreacted, and the disproportionate casualty figures during the incident suggest this to me.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm pretty sure that the IDF forces are some of the best trained of their type in the world. They probably met the attackers with overwhelming force, probably saving a lot more lives. These "activists" knew they were playing with fire and they got burnt. These soldiers had nothing to gain by committing "murder" and everything to lose. I don't think they were that stupid. I believe they were intentionally provoked (for their cameras)

I'm aware the Israel apologists will never see any other POV, and that is one of the reasons Israel will live in paranoid fear for ever. Fanatics on both sides are entrenched.

I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm rong.

The US could do a hell of a lot more to bring an end to the conflict, but it just doesn't seem to be in the interests of certain sections of US society.

The US needs to fully support Israel or back off and let the chips fall.

The world outside Israel and the US continue to shake their heads at the ongoing nonsense.

...while offering no real solution other than buying into the growing anti-Israel sentiment in the world. I'm not sure what the world expects Israel to do. Giving Israeli land to the Palestinians has been shown not to be the answer... and, they do not have any to give and I seriously doubt that even that would be the end. Maybe they should just follow Gandhi's dumbass advice in WW2 and just calmly accept the Holocaust and martyrdom.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I'm asking questions which you seem to find offensive, hence resorting to your comments.

Nonsense. You made misstatements of international law, twice, and I corrected you, twice. Now you're just doing the 2-step.

[falxori 0]

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The ships of the flotilla were NOT full of people intent on martyrdom

No, but enough who did. and even the some of the organizers said they lost control of it.

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They were intent on delivering aid

No, they wanted a media circus. if they wanted to deliver aid they could have delivered through Israel as suggested (and Israel did deliver everything that was on the ships to Gaza).

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video seen was that issued by the IDF, which conflicts with the reports of some of those on board the ships

Listen to yourself. VIDEO conflicts with reports. yes, editing can change the POV but the video is of the actual takeover and it shows exactly what took place.

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I THINK the IDF overreacted, and the disproportionate casualty figures during the incident suggest this to me.

Do you know that the soldiers first boarded the ship with paint guns? they only used live ammo after they were attacked with knives and clubs, some were thrown overboard and some were taken below deck. at that stage and force in the world would have used live ammo.

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The US could do a hell of a lot more to bring an end to the conflict

it can force an agreement, mostly on Israel, yes. but unless both sides see the value in an agreement, it will not happen. But this is not relevant to this incident.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[skipbelt 0]

this should calm the waters !

[Amazon 7]

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this should calm the waters !

Not a chance... delusions about the evil IDF will go on and on and on.... the gullible are too entrenched in their little fantasy land

They are also incapable of seeing the true nature of the people they are supporting

[skipbelt 0]

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this should calm the waters !

Not a chance... delusions about the evil IDF will go on and on and on.... the gullible are too entrenched in their little fantasy land
They are also incapable of seeing the true nature of the people they are supporting

i see your point .
i wonder why some americans have more in common with our enemies , than our allies !

[dreamdancer 0]

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You're deliberately ignoring the legal facts clearly set out in posts #130 & 131, and in doing so, you're blowing it out your ass.

murder is murder - whether you are wearing a uniform or not.

can you not see this?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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I'm asking questions which you seem to find offensive, hence resorting to your comments.

Nonsense. You made misstatements of international law, twice, and I corrected you, twice. Now you're just doing the 2-step.

you're not capable of correcting anyone - they were in international waters and the blockade is disputed. you can keep copying and pasting the same thing over and over again - but you're just stuck in 'legalese land' - come back to reality

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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if they wanted to deliver aid they could have delivered through Israel as suggested (and Israel did deliver everything that was on the ships to Gaza).

absolute drivel - the humans in gaza are still not getting the aid they need.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding