Economy still sucks, unemployment is still high, yet the rich just keep getting richer.

[Lucky... 0]

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and it takes more work to become a petroleum engineer than to become a waitress

Very, very good point

Well done!

Bravo, bravo [sticks pinky out and sips tea while asking for the grey poupon.].

And really, it takes more intellect to become an engineer than it does to become a waitress. Once you become an engineer, the work is, again, more intellectual in nature, not really the kind of work you're referring to.

[rushmc 23]

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and it takes more work to become a petroleum engineer than to become a waitress

Very, very good point

Well done!

Bravo, bravo [sticks pinky out and sips tea while asking for the grey poupon.].

And really, it takes more intellect to become an engineer than it does to become a waitress. Once you become an engineer, the work is, again, more intellectual in nature, not really the kind of work you're referring to.

Hard work is rewarded in this country

Guys like you are trying to change that

Does not matter what the work is

I know you dont understand that comrad

And I know why

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

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Hard work is rewarded in this country

But not always proportionately. Yes, if you work hard as a dishwasher you'll go farther than if you don't (I have a friend who makes a very good living working for McDonald's, having started right out of high school).

But if you work hard as a dishwasher, without a LOT of luck you won't go nearly as far as someone who phones it in but who started with money and college (which take luck to get also).

Why does college take luck? You have to either have a family who values it and saves for it, or who has enough money to just pay. If you don't, then you have to work a lot harder, because you have to work on scholarships (they're not easy -- it's a morass of conflicting paperwork). And plenty of schools don't do much to help kids get to college; they don't see college in the future of their students, so they don't do anything to help them.

And then this 18-year-old has even more to learn.

Not to say that it shouldn't be so, just that to say that hard work is rewarded is disingenuous, and to say that we all entirely earned what we have is bullshit.

As the old expression goes, sliding into home when you started out on third base isn't all that impressive.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[futuredivot 0]

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you wanted more making it no longer scentific.

When was it EVER scientific?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[rushmc 23]

Sorry Wendy
I agree with little if any of your post

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Let me guess...you are one of those people who think every child playing soccer should get a trophy for participating but no trophy is handed out for winning.

Nailed it!

So seriously you might as well give up on Lucky it is pointless..... just be ready after November to post


Then after Obama gets beat two years later you will get to do it again.

How's that stock market crash working out? Hmmmm, 200 pts on friday; > 10,800 - looks like a real bear market to me; you were right.

That was about a year ago you predicted a sell-off/crash, laughing at your computer with your moronic co-workers. The market was about 10,200 then, blew up to > 11K, then months later down to 9800 and now back to 10,800. Do you need more time, perhaps another year to make your dream prognostication come true?

Once again you write what you hear or read.... exactly what I said was going to happen di happen and will continue to happen. You may want to take a look at the volume in the market Luckster...... it says one thing..... the big dogs are not even playing which bodes very badly. Keep on thinking waht you want... November is going to be grand!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[DARK 0]

quade what is your point? i understand what you are saying but what relevance is it to anything?

the truth is you have no idea how hard these rich people work or have work in the past. if they worked 23 hour days for ten years would it be ok for them to be rich in your eyes?

please give a workable alternative to the free market because thats basically what you are arguing against by saying a persons work is worth more then the free market is willing to pay for it

[wmw999 2,588]

A person's work might well be worth what the market is paying for it. It's just that how hard that work is isn't always related to what it's paid. Working hard isn't always the answer -- plenty of people do that, and don't get ahead.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[champu 1]

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If there's more than one person in your home, generally speaking all the money goes into a joint checking account and the person that earned the most does end up paying the most percentage wise.

Let's say you have a kid in school, but he doesn't work. You probably don't starve him just because he's not putting money in the bank.

However, once the kid gets a job, you might start having him pay "rent" to help contribute to the bills. Ok, it's not as much as the breadwinner of the house pays in. It's not an equal share, but it's something. The person making the most money is still going to end up paying the most because he's the only one with enough money to make the whole thing work in the kind of house everybody wants to live in.

Grandma lives with you. She may putter around the house, but really can't work anymore. Nor should she have to. She did, after all put in work raising you. I doubt you're going to deny her a trip to the doctor or meals just because she isn't working now.

I reserve the right to give a great deal more of a shit about my family than about the entire population of the country. Please understand I'm not a "let them rot" advocate, but I don't want the comforts I seek to provide my family to be used against me in any discussion of what should be provided to every family in part or in full on the taxpayers' dime.

Also, you're suggesting that the impoverished are comparable to schoolchildren which I think is condescending towards them and the design of welfare systems, safety nets, etc. with that sort of attitude will never result in programs that actually help peoples' situations.

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Not to say that it shouldn't be so, just that to say that hard work is rewarded is disingenuous, and to say that we all entirely earned what we have is bullshit.

People who have "had it easy" don't like their accomplishments marginalized. I think people (myself included at times) are too obsessed with being impressive, and it can cloud their understanding of what each person means when they say, "working hard." I'm a white male who grew up in the suburbs so I've had plenty of practice at never wow-ing anyone. I sometimes [half-]joke that, "I live in a beach city, design satellites for a living, and have thousands of skydives... but really I'm only interesting on paper."

[wmw999 2,588]

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People who have "had it easy" don't like their accomplishments marginalized.

No, they don't. I've had it easy. But once you start comparing and competing on accomplishments, then it's easy to judge someone's work by their net worth.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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A Denny's waitress works harder and makes a fraction of what an upscale watress would earn.

Not at any Denny's I've been to.

But your work-for-pay relationship fails, even if they work as hard as the upscale waitress, the latter gets way more, so there is no direct relationship between the two.

The successful Denny's waitress has more opportunity to get a better job. The lazy, fired, Denny's waitress is going to have a more difficult time.

If you're too lazy to look at the bigger picture, it's hardly a surprise that it doesn't happen. This whining that effort doesn't pay off is the excuse used by the losers.

[wmw999 2,588]

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The successful Denny's waitress has more opportunity to get a better job. The lazy, fired, Denny's waitress is going to have a more difficult time.

That's absolutely valid, and comparing Denny's waitresses's tips at the same shift and restaurant can be a great measure of their skill and hard work.

Now -- compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas and one in Florida (not Disney). Who's going to get the better tips? They'll both work hard, but gamblers tend to be better tippers than retirees.

To me, pay is a measure of work level, as long as it's taken in context.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,118]

>Now -- compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas and one in Florida (not Disney).

Or compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas to a waitress at the cafe in Hamdallaye, Niger. The waitress in Hamdallaye is not going to have the opportunities that the waitress in Vegas has no matter how hard she works (although it's still a good idea, of course.)

[skipbelt 0]

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>and it takes more work to become a petroleum engineer than to become
>a waitress.
Exactly. And more money, and more time. It's not just "who works harder." It's that plus their history up to that point, plus the place they live, plus their aptitudes, plus a whole lot of luck.

luck , where hard work , preparation, and opportunity meet !

[rushmc 23]

luck , where hard work , preparation, and opportunity meet !

[DARK 0]

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A person's work might well be worth what the market is paying for it. It's just that how hard that work is isn't always related to what it's paid. Working hard isn't always the answer -- plenty of people do that, and don't get ahead.

Wendy P.

yes i understand that but i still fail to see what quades point is?

there is no other way

not everyone can be on top of the pyramid no matter how hard everyone works

[billvon 3,118]

>luck , where hard work , preparation, and opportunity meet !

Yep. Have a good sized helping of all four - and you've got that $250K a year job.

[skipbelt 0]

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Are you still saying that hard work will not make you more money?

I'm saying you don't get paid for how hard the work is. You get paid according to how much somebody else thinks that work is worth.
Subtle distinction; too subtle for a couple of folks here I guess.

wrong on two counts. there is published reference material that accurately depicts how much a certain type of job pays. with preparation an applicant can know how much a job pays. and if it includes piece work , tips , commission or other forms of monetary compensation a range of income depending on how hard you work. then it won't be someone else thinking it. it will be you knowing it. and your distinction is subtle only to you !

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Now -- compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas and one in Florida (not Disney).

Or compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas to a waitress at the cafe in Hamdallaye, Niger. The waitress in Hamdallaye is not going to have the opportunities that the waitress in Vegas has no matter how hard she works (although it's still a good idea, of course.)

Way to jump outside the box!

Are the customers in Niger Americans, or non tipping Eurotrash?

[billvon 3,118]

>Are the customers in Niger Americans, or non tipping Eurotrash?

?? They're generally other people from Niger.

[wmw999 2,588]

Opportunity = luck
Preparation = being able to take advantage of it
Hard work = part of preparation

But luck really is a part of it. It's often easy to see what should have been done in retrospect, but not nearly as easy to see it ahead of time.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Are the customers in Niger Americans, or non tipping Eurotrash?

?? They're generally other people from Niger.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember several posts here that qualify the thread as being "In this Country"

American Dream - Happened to my grandfather:
13 brothers and sisters
Father was disabled by war injury
No government assistance was ever accepted
worked 3 jobs during the week while in grade school
2 jobs while in high school
Graduated HS
Went to War - war ended
Got home and washed dishes while he waited until he could/was accepted to climb poles for the telephone company. (Mountain Bell)
Worked extra hours, and put in as much opvertime as he was allowed, to make more money
Used money earned over and above his normal wages to put himself through college
Graduted magna cum-laude while having a full time job climbing telephone poles
Also supported his wife at the same time
Worked harder and put in more hours than expected - got promoted
Repeated the work/promotion scenario several times
Was able by his record to not be dismissed/let go during the ATT split
Retired as Vice President/General Manger of a Bell company

Seems to me thast hard work, sacrifice, and determination gets you better reward.

It's not guaranteed, but it is still possible.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,588]

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Seems to me thast hard work, sacrifice, and determination gets you better reward.

No disagreement there. But they don't guarantee it, and the reward is not a good measure of the effort, unless you make sure you're comparing apples to apples (or similar jobs in similar places).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

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Seems to me thast hard work, sacrifice, and determination gets you better reward.

No disagreement there. But they don't guarantee it, and the reward is not a good measure of the effort, unless you make sure you're comparing apples to apples (or similar jobs in similar places).

Wendy P.

OK - Compare.

Someone was up for the promotions besides the one that received them, right?

Another way to look at this is to compare it to the olympics.

You work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and win.

If the guy you compete against has advantages over you, you would need to work harder to overcome those differences.

There is no set scale as to what level of "harder" you would have to work. As long as you have worked harder than the people around you vying for the same job, you succeed.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,118]

>You work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and win.

Good example - because for most people, you work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and you lose. To win the Olympics you need to do all the above and have the genetics to allow you to be just slightly better than all the other people who are doing the same. You can work as hard as is humanly possible - if you don't have a strong heart and lungs, you're not going to win any cross country skiing events.

With employment, you have the same issue. Hard work is just one of the reasons you get ahead. Others are educational opportunities, raw talent (i.e. IQ, personality) family environment and sheer luck. All the hard work in the world won't make up for an IQ of 75.

> As long as you have worked harder than the people around you vying
>for the same job, you succeed.

Not true at all; see above.