Happy Constitution Day! A quote from a founding father.

[jgoose71 0]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[quade 4]

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Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Because there was a LOT of bullshit various people wanted in The Constitution that was either debated out or not ratified.

It's "nice" to understand what some of them wanted, but The Constitution is the actual document that was ratified.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

Ironic, since the founding fathers were liberals.

Speed Racer
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[quade 4]

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Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

Ironic, since the founding fathers were liberals.

Classic left-wing liberals by any political science definition taught in schools since the French revolution.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jgoose71 0]

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Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Because there was a LOT of bullshit various people wanted in The Constitution that was either debated out or not ratified.

It's "nice" to understand what some of them wanted, but The Constitution is the actual document that was ratified.

We aren't talking about stuff that was debated out or not ratified. I'm talking about what is actually in the constitution, like I don't know, the second amendment, the commerce clause, etc, etc, etc....

There is a lot of debate about various articles and amendments, but when you go back to what the founding fathers said about some of this stuff, their intentions about why these bits and pieces made it become clear.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[rhaig 0]

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It's "nice" to understand what some of them wanted, but The Constitution is the actual document that was ratified.

so we should take it without context?

--
Rob

[quade 4]

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It's "nice" to understand what some of them wanted, but The Constitution is the actual document that was ratified.

so we should take it without context?

No. You should take it in context of what actually made it into The Constitution. Again, the words of at least the 2/3rds majority rather than the voice of just one individual.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jgoose71 0]

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Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

Ironic, since the founding fathers were liberals.

So, true...

But I would like to stay true to their liberal views of government, not the new liberal views of government.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[quade 4]

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We aren't talking about stuff that was debated out or not ratified. I'm talking about what is actually in the constitution, like I don't know, the second amendment, the commerce clause, etc, etc, etc....

So, you think the issues surrounding the Second Amendment weren't debated?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

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No. You should take it in context of what actually made it into The Constitution. Again, the words of at least the 2/3rds majority rather than the voice of just one individual.

when people take it without external context, I see things like an analysis of the grammar based on modern grammar rules.... "what does it mean that they put a comma there" That isn't a complete sentence. How can you infer meaning from that?"

You simply shouldn't analyze a 200+ year old document by modern grammar rules.

Knowing the ideas that were in the ideas of the authors helps add meaning to what you read.

--
Rob

[Amazon 7]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

And how many slaves do you wish to own???

[jgoose71 0]

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We aren't talking about stuff that was debated out or not ratified. I'm talking about what is actually in the constitution, like I don't know, the second amendment, the commerce clause, etc, etc, etc....

So, you think the issues surrounding the Second Amendment weren't debated?

I think they were, and I think that quotes from that debate should be used when debating said issues today. That is the point I've been trying to make this whole thread.

People today have been ignoring those debates and perverting the meaning of the constitution.

Hence my James Madison quote at the beginning of the thread.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[quade 4]

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Knowing the ideas that were in the ideas of the authors helps add meaning to what you read.

And I have no problem with your basic concept as long as you're actually taking ALL of them into consideration and not just the ones cherry picked to support a point of view.

That said, the actual document, the Constitution of the United States is the over riding document in question; not some musings that got left behind.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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I think they were, and I think that quotes from that debate should be used when debating said issues today.

And yet, typically a person will dig up only one quote to support their specific point. THAT is my point with regards to putting too much weight on any one specific quote. Generally they're cherry picked.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jgoose71 0]

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I think they were, and I think that quotes from that debate should be used when debating said issues today.

And yet, typically a person will dig up only one quote to support their specific point. THAT is my point with regards to putting too much weight on any one specific quote. Generally they're cherry picked.

Is it cherry picking when you find similar quotes from most of the 38 guys that ratified it?

Reading some of there writings, they were more concerned with restraining government than enabling it. They were scared that the government would eventually turn into something that would invade every aspect of their personal lives. This was they tyranny they were trying to escape.

You should really sit down and take a look at some of what they had to say some time.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

And how many slaves do you wish to own???

And because there was slavery 200 years ago we should throw out everything they ever said? Way to go to the extreme.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Amazon 7]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

And how many slaves do you wish to own???

And because there was slavery 200 years ago we should throw out everything they ever said? Way to go to the extreme.

No I am hearing all this blathering and blabbering about the constitution as it was written by the architects. To not realize that times and people have changed..and that half of those "architects" were slave owners, most of them were misogynists since their "enlightenment" did not extend to women or people of color, and were the landed gentry of the time is retarded just as it is using a 2500 year old book translated 400 years ago to explain the world and a wish to enforce outdated religious morality on our country. Hell most of those wishing to shove that agenda are a HUGE FAIL since the imbeciles can’t even live up to their own stated morality that they wish to foist on the rest of us.

[jgoose71 0]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

And how many slaves do you wish to own???

And because there was slavery 200 years ago we should throw out everything they ever said? Way to go to the extreme.

No I am hearing all this blathering and blabbering about the constitution as it was written by the architects. To not realize that times and people have changed..and that half of those "architects" were slave owners, most of them were misogynists since their "enlightenment" did not extend to women or people of color, and were the landed gentry of the time is retarded just as it is using a 2500 year old book translated 400 years ago to explain the world and a wish to enforce outdated religious morality on our country. Hell most of those wishing to shove that agenda are a HUGE FAIL since the imbeciles can’t even live up to their own stated morality that they wish to foist on the rest of us.

So you are saying "Piss on the founding fathers, the constitution is an outdated piece of shit." Got it.

I guess the word hasn't gotten to you yet that all of the freedoms of the white man have been extended to people of color and women. I'll try to make sure the memo gets sent your way, Rev. Wright.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Amazon 7]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

And how many slaves do you wish to own???

And because there was slavery 200 years ago we should throw out everything they ever said? Way to go to the extreme.

No I am hearing all this blathering and blabbering about the constitution as it was written by the architects. To not realize that times and people have changed..and that half of those "architects" were slave owners, most of them were misogynists since their "enlightenment" did not extend to women or people of color, and were the landed gentry of the time is retarded just as it is using a 2500 year old book translated 400 years ago to explain the world and a wish to enforce outdated religious morality on our country. Hell most of those wishing to shove that agenda are a HUGE FAIL since the imbeciles can’t even live up to their own stated morality that they wish to foist on the rest of us.

So you are saying "Piss on the founding fathers, the constitution is an outdated piece of shit." Got it.

I guess the word hasn't gotten to you yet that all of the freedoms of the white man have been extended to people of color and women. I'll try to make sure the memo gets sent your way, Rev. Wright.

Nothing got changed without a hell of a lot of change over those 200+ years... I dont want to throw it out... like so many of your fellow travellers wish to throw out things like the 1st and the 4th..... but we do understand all to well where you are coming from Representative Duke.

[jgoose71 0]

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'Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."

James Madison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html

It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

And how many slaves do you wish to own???

And because there was slavery 200 years ago we should throw out everything they ever said? Way to go to the extreme.

No I am hearing all this blathering and blabbering about the constitution as it was written by the architects. To not realize that times and people have changed..and that half of those "architects" were slave owners, most of them were misogynists since their "enlightenment" did not extend to women or people of color, and were the landed gentry of the time is retarded just as it is using a 2500 year old book translated 400 years ago to explain the world and a wish to enforce outdated religious morality on our country. Hell most of those wishing to shove that agenda are a HUGE FAIL since the imbeciles can’t even live up to their own stated morality that they wish to foist on the rest of us.

So you are saying "Piss on the founding fathers, the constitution is an outdated piece of shit." Got it.

I guess the word hasn't gotten to you yet that all of the freedoms of the white man have been extended to people of color and women. I'll try to make sure the memo gets sent your way, Rev. Wright.

Nothing got changed without a hell of a lot of change over those 200+ years... I dont want to throw it out... like so many of your fellow travellers wish to throw out things like the 1st and the 4th..... but we do understand all to well where you are coming from Representative Duke.

Nothing Changed without change? Brilliant.

Who said anything about throwing out the first and fourth amendment? I'm trying to give context to the text. This is what they were thinking when they wrote it and this is why. If you don't care about why they put in the commerce clause because slavery was legal 200 years ago, so be it. You might as well throw out the teachings of Socrates and Aristotle while you are at it. I'm sure there was something going on then you would find disagreeable.

Just go on towing the party line and obey your liberal masters. Everything American is evil because there was slavery in our history.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Amazon 7]

I know.... its a gravity anomaly there that is causing this right???


Go ahead and keep listening to your conservative masters.. maybe they will get a chance to roll back.. all the change you hate. Truthfully there is not much difference in the extremests you guys are rolling out.. have you heard the spewage coming out of the new face of the American Taliban.. the whack job from Deleware. I mean really.. you want things back the way they were 200 + years ago... mkk... right.. so how are you fuckers any different than those other great conservetards that want to roll back the world to a 7th century Caliphate.

NONE...you sound the same

[jgoose71 0]

I'm just trying to defend the constitution and you are accusing me of trying to bring back slavery and turn the country into a caliphate. I guess you really got me pegged, don't you? Are you stalking me?

Seriously, if this country is so bad, might I suggest a nice socialist country in the European Union for you? I think Canada is only a few hours north.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Amazon 7]

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I'm just trying to defend the constitution and you are accusing me of trying to bring back slavery and turn the country into a caliphate. I guess you really got me pegged, don't you? Are you stalking me?

Seriously, if this country is so bad, might I suggest a nice socialist country in the European Union for you? I think Canada is only a few hours north.

Nope.. I served this country.... I will stick around and DEFEND my constitution and the oath I took to it at the timne and I intend to support what it stands for.

As it was written it was flawed. Some of those flaws have been removed to the UTTER chagrin of those who want to conserve things that are no longer valid.

[jgoose71 0]

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As it was written it was flawed. Some of those flaws have been removed to the UTTER chagrin of those who want to conserve things that are no longer valid.

Well you wouldn't know it. While you are pissing on the constitution why don't you piss on the 13, 15, and 19th amendment. I kind of like them, but if you say it needs change......

Me personally, I think this country is great. I believe our constitution and the freedoms it has guaranteed us is the cause of our greatness.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Amazon 7]

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As it was written it was flawed. Some of those flaws have been removed to the UTTER chagrin of those who want to conserve things that are no longer valid.

Well you wouldn't know it. While you are pissing on the constitution why don't you piss on the 13, 15, and 19th amendment. I kind of like them, but if you say it needs change......

Me personally, I think this country is great. I believe our constitution and the freedoms it has guaranteed us is the cause of our greatness.

YOU said this in the OP

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It's constitution day today. I thought this would be a good day to remember some of the quotes from our founding fathers.

There has been a lot of stuff lately about the legalities of the constitution. Instead of arguing about what this line or that line means because of the placement of a comma, why not just go back to the words and writings of the architects?

Of course if we did that, the liberals would lose a lot of their arguments.

Personally I am good with the way it was written AND the changes that have been made to it.

The problem is when so many of your fellow travellers WORSHIP the original and wish to change it for THE WORSE.