If I broke into your house . . .

[turtlespeed 226]

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Disagree. Why would YOU want to be held responsible for MY business practices?

If I do business with you willingly (i.e. I had a reasonable choice), it's not unreasonable to include legality of operations (and employees) among the criteria.

Some companies include "no child labor" or "no slave labor," but those aren't against the law in the countries where it's happening. In the US, it's illegal to hire undocumented workers -- shouldn't it be illegal to hire a company known to use undocumented workers? Of course, this means plenty of room for legal wrangling around whether the contracting company should have known, but lawrocket's kids need to go to college, after all...

Wendy P.

What in the name of all that is good and right in this world is an "Undocumented Worker"?

What is that?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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Disagree. Why would YOU want to be held responsible for MY business practices?

If I do business with you willingly (i.e. I had a reasonable choice), it's not unreasonable to include legality of operations (and employees) among the criteria.

Some companies include "no child labor" or "no slave labor," but those aren't against the law in the countries where it's happening. In the US, it's illegal to hire undocumented workers -- shouldn't it be illegal to hire a company known to use undocumented workers? Of course, this means plenty of room for legal wrangling around whether the contracting company should have known, but lawrocket's kids need to go to college, after all... Wendy P.

I'm mostly on Andy/Pops's side on this - taken too far, it's unreasonable - or at least extremely impractical - to nail a contractor for the hiring practices of all of its subcontractors. Still, the overall policy concern is valid.

So I'd offer a compromise solution:
- Develop a standard government form (an "I-###" kind of form) for subcontractors to sign and give to contractors that basically says "Under penalty of law, I hereby pledge and affirm that I follow all requirements of law not to employ illegal immigrants."
- The contractor has the right to rely upon that form, without further penalty if the subcontractor does employ an illegal. (This relieves the contractor of being effectively required to constantly investigate and monitor all of its subcontractors. )
- If the subcontractor submits that signed form to a contractor but actually does employ illegal immigrants, that itself is a violation for which the subcontractor is liable.
- The only way, then, that a contractor could potentially be liable for the subcontractor's hiring practice, after a subcontractor has submitted a Form I-###, is if it can be proven by competent evidence that the contractor and subcontractor were in deliberate collusion.

It is not unreasonable to hold a gneral contractor or firm that hires the subcontractors, and by proxy, the subs of subs, accountable for at least a good faith effort.

As I have stated before, I require the project managers and superintendents to have a list of employees working on any given day included in their daily reports. That list is verified by e-verify before that person can work there.

I cannot say 100% certainty that someone isn't commiting fraud as well as illegal entry into this country. But I put I put a substantial effort forth to keep that from happening.

I do not believe it is unreasonable to expect everyone else to do that as well.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,560]

Cripes -- it's just a word. It's a motherfucking cocksucking scummy dirty rotten stealing lowest-of-the-low illegal alien, who happens to be working. It's shorter than saying "worker illegal alien."

Is that better?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[futuredivot 0]

but longer than just "illegal alien". kinda newspeakish if you ask me (which I'm well aware that you didn't)

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[quade 4]

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What in the name of all that is good and right in this world is an "Undocumented Worker"?

A person that works, but doesn't have documents.

Duh.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,560]

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but longer than just "illegal alien". kinda newspeakish if you ask me (which I'm well aware that you didn't)

So I'm not using terminology that you think is sensitive enough to your feelings?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[futuredivot 0]

just not wholly accurate terminology.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[turtlespeed 226]

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Cripes -- it's just a word. It's a motherfucking cocksucking scummy dirty rotten stealing lowest-of-the-low illegal alien, who happens to be working. It's shorter than saying "worker illegal alien."

Is that better?

Wendy P.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck . . .

I just call an illegal alien what they are, illegal aliens. That is what they are first and foremost. Calling them something that is PC and sugar coated to lessen and soften the fact that they are here illegally is dishonest.

If you see a child molester that you recognise, do you refer to hom as a child molester or a Misunderstood Sexual Education Teacher?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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just not wholly accurate terminology.

What she said is accurate, the worker is undocumented . . . but perhaps she could not glaze over the law breaking factors that she would like to ignore and would like to hide.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

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If you see a child molester that you recognise, do you refer to hom as a child molester or a Misunderstood Sexual Education Teacher?

The word "Father" is shorter.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,090]

>I just call an illegal alien what they are, illegal aliens.

Fair enough - but all your comments above concerning requirements on workers, verification, penalties for employment etc may not apply. Many illegal aliens do not work.

>If you see a child molester that you recognise, do you refer to hom as a
>child molester . . .

Child molester would definitely be more accurate than illegal resident.

[futuredivot 0]

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just not wholly accurate terminology.

What she said is accurate,

But not wholly accurate.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[turtlespeed 226]

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>I just call an illegal alien what they are, illegal aliens.

Fair enough - but all your comments above concerning requirements on workers, verification, penalties for employment etc may not apply. Many illegal aliens do not work.

>If you see a child molester that you recognise, do you refer to hom as a
>child molester . . .

Child molester would definitely be more accurate than illegal resident.

Chronologicaly it is.

The first thing that person did was to cross the border illegally.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,560]

It is entirely accurate. It might not say what you want it to say or use the words you want me to use, but it's accurate.

If I were to call them all humans, it would also be accurate. Incomplete in that case (because their illegal alien nature would not be apparent), but accurate nevertheless.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,560]

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The first thing that person did was to cross the border illegally

No, the first thing they did was to be born.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[futuredivot 0]

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It is entirely accurate.

But not, particularly in the context of this conversation, wholly accurate.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[billvon 3,090]

>The first thing that person did was to cross the border illegally.

Most people have done a lot more than that by the time they cross any border.

If you're talking about employment of aliens who cannot work legally, "undocumented worker" is pretty accurate. "Illegal alien employed by a US firm" is not quite as accurate, because it ignores people who come here on a legal visa (say a tourist visa) and then work illegally. "Illegal alien" as a term doesn't distinguish between non-working and working illegal aliens, and all the employment restrictions in the world won't affect them.

[quade 4]

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It is entirely accurate.

But not, particularly in the context of this conversation, wholly accurate.

Wholly accurate? It's an adjective and a noun. "Undocumented" or "Illegal" is doing nothing more than modifying the noun "Alien" or "Worker." Both are framing the debate from a different point of view, but to say either is more or less accurate as it pertains to the problem as a whole is hogwash.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

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The first thing that person did was to cross the border illegally

No, the first thing they did was to be born.

Wendy P.

If that were the case - the 14th amendment would cover them.

Perhaps I should have added - "With regard to being in this country."
But you know what I meant, you probably just wanted to insert some saarcasm.
I guess it should also include the thought process that went into the planning of the act of crossing the border illegaly. That would likely prove to make it conspiracy to comit a crime, but I'm pretty sure that is even less desireable to think about.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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It is entirely accurate.

But not, particularly in the context of this conversation, wholly accurate.

Wholly accurate? It's an adjective and a noun. "Undocumented" or "Illegal" is doing nothing more than modifying the noun "Alien" or "Worker." Both are framing the debate from a different point of view, but to say either is more or less accurate as it pertains to the problem as a whole is hogwash.

I see, so what you are trying to impart is that you would prefer to call them "Undocumented" and ignore the issue of the illegal activities that they conspire to commit?

I assume you spin it the way you do because it sounds nicer to you, and we all have to be nicer, or face the penalty.

Tell me something, Why is it my responsibility to make adjustments and amend my life to accomodate illegal activity?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,090]

>Why is it my responsibility to make adjustments and amend my life to
>accomodate illegal activity?

You don't have to.

[futuredivot 0]

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It is entirely accurate.

But not, particularly in the context of this conversation, wholly accurate.

Wholly accurate? It's an adjective and a noun. "Undocumented" or "Illegal" is doing nothing more than (partially) modifying the noun "Alien" or "Worker." Both are framing the debate from a different point of view, but to say either is more or less accurate as it pertains to the problem as a whole is hogwash.

Since the crux of the conversation IS the legal status of the illegal aliens, your denial ventures from hogwash into the land of lies

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[wmw999 2,560]

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Tell me something, Why is it my responsibility to make adjustments and amend my life to accomodate illegal activity?

How does my use of wording impact that?

The fact is that the cost of entirely sealing the border is not cost-effective, just as the cost of entirely burglar-proofing (or roach-proofing) your home is not cost-effective.

The thing to dicker about is what we're willing to pay to get as good a seal as reasonable, and what constitutes "reasonable." As long as people take non-negotiable stances on an impossible task (in either direction), there can't be any progress.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

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It is entirely accurate.

But not, particularly in the context of this conversation, wholly accurate.

Wholly accurate? It's an adjective and a noun. "Undocumented" or "Illegal" is doing nothing more than modifying the noun "Alien" or "Worker." Both are framing the debate from a different point of view, but to say either is more or less accurate as it pertains to the problem as a whole is hogwash.

I see, so what you are trying to impart is that you would prefer to call them "Undocumented" and ignore the issue of the illegal activities that they conspire to commit?
I assume you spin it the way you do because it sounds nicer to you, and we all have to be nicer, or face the penalty.
Tell me something, Why is it my responsibility to make adjustments and amend my life to accomodate illegal activity?

Nice try at mind-reading Mr. Kreskin.

No. I was simply telling it like it is. Neither phrase is "wholly accurate."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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It is entirely accurate.

But not, particularly in the context of this conversation, wholly accurate.

Wholly accurate? It's an adjective and a noun. "Undocumented" or "Illegal" is doing nothing more than (partially) modifying the noun "Alien" or "Worker." Both are framing the debate from a different point of view, but to say either is more or less accurate as it pertains to the problem as a whole is hogwash.

Since the crux of the conversation IS the legal status of the illegal aliens, your denial ventures from hogwash into the land of lies

In both cases it's not "partially" modifying the noun. It's absolutely modifying the noun.

My entire point here is that in both cases the words are being used to frame the debate, yet neither are "wholly accurate."

Lemme use a different word that also describes some of the people we're talking about "refugees." It only describes some of the people though, not all.

Another word, "terrorists." It's a word that gets tossed around quite a bit with regards to border safety, but that also doesn't describe the entire situation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver