supermarket westernization

[jakee 1,595]

Very well said.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pirana 0]

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(Now, I hope nobody tries to spin what I've typed to make more of it than what I've actually said, e.g.,: "Oh, so you're OK with beating or stoning Saudi women because that's the traditional Saudi way of life??" No, I'm not. So let's not even go there.)

But by accepting what fits with your principles and rejecting what doesn't, aren't you just cherry-picking from their culture? And isn't that just expecting them to "modernize" or "westernize" in some areas but not others?

I think you alluded to it in comparing to some of our cast off traditions - their culture will age and mature to one that provides equal rights to all (as we are still doing). They are just as not as far in the process yet. Don't forget that we are only 150 years past a time when it was OK to own other humans simply because they had different colored skin.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[turtlespeed 226]

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(Now, I hope nobody tries to spin what I've typed to make more of it than what I've actually said, e.g.,: "Oh, so you're OK with beating or stoning Saudi women because that's the traditional Saudi way of life??" No, I'm not. So let's not even go there.)

But by accepting what fits with your principles and rejecting what doesn't, aren't you just cherry-picking from their culture? And isn't that just expecting them to "modernize" or "westernize" in some areas but not others?

I think you alluded to it in comparing to some of our cast off traditions - their culture will age and mature to one that provides equal rights to all (as we are still doing). They are just as not as far in the process yet. Don't forget that we are only 150 years past a time when it was OK to own other humans simply because they had different colored skin.

Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[happythoughts 0]

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Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

This is the stupidity of the "can't we all just get along" theory. "Things will work out... we just need to give it some time."

Instead, what we need are Muslims who stand up and say, "The Taliban will disfigure children for the 'crime' of walking to school. Any group who would do this is evil." Simple.

Instead? We have young men of Somali descent who went back to fight for Somalia on the Taliban side.

Muslim clerics in all western societies need to say that the Taliban is wrong.
That the Taliban is not the voice of Islam. Publicly.
In their mosques. This would solve a range of problems.

[turtlespeed 226]

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Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

This is the stupidity of the "can't we all just get along" theory. "Things will work out... we just need to give it some time."

Instead, what we need are Muslims who stand up and say, "The Taliban will disfigure children for the 'crime' of walking to school. Any group who would do this is evil." Simple.

Instead? We have young men of Somali descent who went back to fight for Somalia on the Taliban side.

Muslim clerics in all western societies need to say that the Taliban is wrong.
That the Taliban is not the voice of Islam. Publicly.
In their mosques. This would solve a range of problems.

If they weren't so scared of their own people - they might even publiscise it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 2]

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Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

This is the stupidity of the "can't we all just get along" theory. "Things will work out... we just need to give it some time."

Instead, what we need are Muslims who stand up and say, "The Taliban will disfigure children for the 'crime' of walking to school. Any group who would do this is evil." Simple.

Instead? We have young men of Somali descent who went back to fight for Somalia on the Taliban side.

Muslim clerics in all western societies need to say that the Taliban is wrong.
That the Taliban is not the voice of Islam. Publicly.
In their mosques. This would solve a range of problems.

A few times now on this board, people have asked "Where are all the Muslims who speak out against Muslim-committed terrorism??", to which billvon replies with a post with about a dozen links demonstrating exactly that.
So now it's "Taliban". OK, whatever.

[turtlespeed 226]

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Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

This is the stupidity of the "can't we all just get along" theory. "Things will work out... we just need to give it some time."

Instead, what we need are Muslims who stand up and say, "The Taliban will disfigure children for the 'crime' of walking to school. Any group who would do this is evil." Simple.

Instead? We have young men of Somali descent who went back to fight for Somalia on the Taliban side.

Muslim clerics in all western societies need to say that the Taliban is wrong.
That the Taliban is not the voice of Islam. Publicly.
In their mosques. This would solve a range of problems.

A few times now on this board, people have asked "Where are all the Muslims who speak out against Muslim-committed terrorism??", to which billvon replies with a post with about a dozen links demonstrating exactly that.
So now it's "Taliban". OK, whatever.

It's BOTH . . . and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made.

They are just to scared of the actions they know their own peole are capable of.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,588]

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and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made

I haven't heard a lot of protests from ministers against the Westboro Baptist Church, and they're definitely still around. I guess that Christians are for that, then, right?

What makes you think that the opinion of moderate Muslims in the US will make any difference whatsoever to radical right-wing Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

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and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made

I haven't heard a lot of protests from ministers against the Westboro Baptist Church, and they're definitely still around. I guess that Christians are for that, then, right?

What makes you think that the opinion of moderate Muslims in the US will make any difference whatsoever to radical right-wing Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Wendy P.

How many churches do you attend?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,595]

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and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made

I haven't heard a lot of protests from ministers against the Westboro Baptist Church, and they're definitely still around. I guess that Christians are for that, then, right?

What makes you think that the opinion of moderate Muslims in the US will make any difference whatsoever to radical right-wing Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Wendy P.

How many churches do you attend?

How many mosques do you frequent?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[TriGirl 343]

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For example, the beating of women for the offense of not wearing a veil or speaking to a man not her husband outside the presence of her family is something I would never, ever be open-minded about. That is a human rights concern. On the other hand, on religious grounds, for example, women in Saudi Arabia are forbidden to drive; and up until fairly recently, artificial birth control was unlawful in Ireland. While I might think that each of those restrictions are ridiculous, those are mainly civil liberties issues, not human rights issues.

Ah, well if that's the way you're looking at it, I say fuck the Saudi way of life.

I don't give a toss if it's "their culture" or "their tradition" - it is unjustifiable to impose those restrictions on people who have not chosen them and do not want them.

The interesting point in the article IS that the government is trying to keep the religious zealots at bay. The royal family would like to modernize (for example, they sent the young equestrian to the competition), but the social influence of the hardliner religious clerics is incredibly strong, and the resulting point of view in the community at large has been solidified over generations. The edict to confine fatwa legitimacy to a select group of clerics is the govt's way of a compromise -- don't write off the clerics entirely, but agree on whose opinions will be endorsed by the country (eg government).

Consider in the US during an election year. We don't require our elected leaders to demonstrate religious participation, but as a society at large, it's big news when a candidate either does not attend church at all, practices a different form than everyone else before (eg Kennedy), or practices a different religion entirely than those before him/her. The rumors about Obama during his candidacy are recounted as "accusations" of being Muslim, as if it would have been a crime!

The societal influence of religious leaders (everywhere) is strong, but I know of nowhere is it stronger than SA. If not, this story wouldn't even have been news. At least in the US, groups like the WBC can't send out their own religious police to enforce their point of view.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[turtlespeed 226]

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and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made

I haven't heard a lot of protests from ministers against the Westboro Baptist Church, and they're definitely still around. I guess that Christians are for that, then, right?

What makes you think that the opinion of moderate Muslims in the US will make any difference whatsoever to radical right-wing Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Wendy P.

How many churches do you attend?

How many mosques do you frequent?

I have been to 3 since I have been in Texas.
I went to 4 while I was in Saudi
I have been to one in California
I have been to 3 in Florida,

You?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Niki1 2]

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and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made

I haven't heard a lot of protests from ministers against the Westboro Baptist Church, and they're definitely still around. I guess that Christians are for that, then, right?

Wendy P.

Amen, Sister Wendy!

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[wmw999 2,588]

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How many churches do you attend?

I think that for the word to get to where anyone would hear it, it'd have to make its way outside the church. If all of that stays internal, how do you know what they're against?

Anyway, I was at church a couple of weeks ago. They didn't mention WBC. In fact, I don't believe I've ever heard WBC mentioned in any of the (largely liberal, More Light / Open & Affirming) churches. Trust me -- they're not for what Phelps says. What he says is antithetical to specific positions we've taken.

I was in both Protestant and Catholic churches during the time of the Troubles in Ireland. Never heard that mentioned, either. Does that mean that churches were FOR that violence? Don't think so.

Maybe, just maybe, the same is true within Islam.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

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How many churches do you attend?

I think that for the word to get to where anyone would hear it, it'd have to make its way outside the church. If all of that stays internal, how do you know what they're against?

That was my starting point.

The mosques I attended each had a unique way to get their message out. I didn't have a translator for the ones in Saudi, but it was intimidating to say the least.

The ones state side were sending out what I would call as a mixed message.

What my main point is, if they want more people to understand, make their religion more transparent and easier to view.

I don't see any advertising for Muslim worship services on any major station or even on cable.

I see plenty of Christian and even a Jewish service or two.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[muff528 3]

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and not enough protest has happened or more of a difference would have been made

I haven't heard a lot of protests from ministers against the Westboro Baptist Church, and they're definitely still around. I guess that Christians are for that, then, right?

What makes you think that the opinion of moderate Muslims in the US will make any difference whatsoever to radical right-wing Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Wendy P.

Holy crap! ....Did WBC finally start blowing stuff up and lopping heads off? I knew those nutcases were close to the edge!

[pirana 0]

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Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

Both; which is not the same as approving what they do. I think seeking to understand comes first. Regardless of how abominable their actions may be to you or I; the only way to effect change* is to set aside the emotions and take a good look at what their principles are and how they came to be (from a long historical perspective).

I understand how tempting it is to jump straight to labeling them as evil and calling for their extermination. Good thing some other soveriegn state didn't do that to us while we were still trading humans like they were sides of beef.

But we evolved socially, bore the brunt of a nasty civil skirmish in the process, grew a lot for it, and continue to mature towards a more civil and equitable society. It just occurs to me that it has been too easy for many to cast stones now that we have moved to a house that is no longer all glass.

And none of this even touches on the fact that much of their beliefs and operating principles are grounded in the very bad behavior acted out upon them by western culture as it grew to world dominance.

*Brute force is of course an option, but would effectively amount to genocide; which really does not appear to have solved any problems where it has been attempted either.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Are you preaching tolerance or patience?

This is the stupidity of the "can't we all just get along" theory. "Things will work out... we just need to give it some time."

Instead, what we need are Muslims who stand up and say, "The Taliban will disfigure children for the 'crime' of walking to school. Any group who would do this is evil." Simple.

Instead? We have young men of Somali descent who went back to fight for Somalia on the Taliban side.

Muslim clerics in all western societies need to say that the Taliban is wrong.
That the Taliban is not the voice of Islam. Publicly.
In their mosques. This would solve a range of problems.

You really expect that immediately and en masse? How quickly we forget that some of our top leaders embraced the Taliban only a few short years ago as allies against communism.

Our own leaders are willing to practice horribly superficial situational ethics for political and financial gain; yet you expect leaders of Islam to draw the line exactly where you think it should be, stand against major resistance to radical change, and risk all hope of exerting future positive influences so that our newfound (from a historical perspective) sensibilities are not offended?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley