Republiturds in a pickle

[Lucky... 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tax_cuts

OK, so the turds want to keep representing who they really care about and chop taxes, rather continue the GWB tax cuts across the board. Obama and the Dems wanna allow all GWB cuts to expire except for couples 250k and below and singles 200k and below. This is clear and undisputed.

Now, if the Dems do nothing, tax cuts expire and they go back, across the board to the Clinton years w/o the help for lower earners. There is no legislative need to intercede, just do nothing and they increase across the board.

But in order for Obama's tax plan to let all cuts expire except for the 200/250 earners, Obama must get legislative help from congress and this is where the tards are leveraging him. They're basically saying cuts for the rich as well as the MC as well as the poor or no deal. The rub here is that most voters reside in that 200/250 area so the R's may lose a few friends if they push that. This is why Rep Boner-boy has relented and is willing to give Obama what he wants, but the R's in the senate are not to sure. Of course what a Reps want is immaterial as all they need is >50% which they should have, but they would need 60 in the senate. So if Obama and the R's in the senate hold tough, the cuts expire across the baord, the voters will see the R's as the devil here, even many R voters.

So this will be fun to watch play out but it puts the R's behind the 8 ball. Of course there will be the school that says Obama should give the minority R's what they want and that him not caving to the minority is what caused all the cuts to expire, but that will be a minority, fringe argument when in reality Obama/Dems will smell better to the masses.

Taxes are a rich thing, they have almost all the money, so they pay most of the taxes. There are morons who still think low taxes for the rich bring prosperity for all, but I think they are a minority, even many R's probably don't buy that BS but are ideologues so they follow the path, looking at the sheeple ahead of them, afraid to differ.

This is a hot-button issue that could really mitigate Dem losses in congress this time, we'll see how it plays out.

[wmw999 2,589]

The term "republiturd" is just as unpleasant as "demokkkrat."

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Lucky... 0]

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The term "republiturd" is just as unpleasant as "demokkkrat."

Wendy P.

Come on, Wendy, of all people, I didn't expect that from you (as in someone who gets upset about silly symbolism). What do you think of the issue?

[turtlespeed 226]

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The term "republiturd" is just as unpleasant as "demokkkrat."

Wendy P.

Come on, Wendy, of all people, I didn't expect that from you (as in someone who gets upset about silly symbolism). What do you think of the issue?

Who read anyting past Republiturd besides you?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,589]

I'll be honest -- your postings are too one-sided for me to read them most of the time. Name-calling and pejoratives don't add to the content.

As for the issue, well, I think that Obama's proposal makes sense. The biggest problem I see is still the government's inability as a wholel to avoid seeing income as always being new and available for spending .

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

the GOP is not in a pickle, not sure on what planet you think that is true.

What they have is an election where they will be making massive gains, and could take one or both chambers of Congress. That was not expected even 6 months ago. So they have to figure out their best plan of attack to get it. Tax policy certainly is going to be a high item, and its one they will have more credibility on given the Obama tax increases wrt health care.

If you can remove the emotionalism, this election will be very interesting in terms of game theory and politics.

[Lucky... 0]

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I'll be honest -- your postings are too one-sided for me to read them most of the time. Name-calling and pejoratives don't add to the content.

As for the issue, well, I think that Obama's proposal makes sense. The biggest problem I see is still the government's inability as a wholel to avoid seeing income as always being new and available for spending .

Wendy P.

I didn't think you were teh type to get hung up on fun langauge.

As for the issue, I've seen you state before that tax cuts create betetrment, that is my paraphrasation. I called you on it and you never responded. Here I see you saying the same. Can you show me a major fed tax cut that has bettered the country? I can show you some that have damaged it and show you tax increases that have bettered it. I can't think of 1 major tax cut that has helped, can you show me one?

As for spending, it is subbordinate to taxing when considering the economy. We had huge spending during the Eisenhower years, Nuke build up, Korea, etc, yet with his high tax rate the debt fell 3 of his 8 years and never took off as with Reagan and his tax cuts and high spending. Other than Clinton, spending has gone wild under most/all other presidents, so it must be moot to argue for low spending and as I illustrated, taxing is more relevant than spending when considering the debt picture.

[Lucky... 0]

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the GOP is not in a pickle, not sure on what planet you think that is true.

What they have is an election where they will be making massive gains, and could take one or both chambers of Congress. That was not expected even 6 months ago. So they have to figure out their best plan of attack to get it. Tax policy certainly is going to be a high item, and its one they will have more credibility on given the Obama tax increases wrt health care.

If you can remove the emotionalism, this election will be very interesting in terms of game theory and politics.

So all the data I post is a product of emotionalism? Or is it how you escape from actually having to address the data? That was rhetorical, we know you do-run, do-run-run from data like all neo-cons.

Even if the turds get control of either or both chambers of congress, it will just be deadlock as with Clinton. The tax cuts will expire and 200/250k and below won't get their meaningless tax cut, the deficit will fall and recovery will be sooner. Amazing how stupid Americans can't see history keep repeating, the moronic American voter (I was one then) threw the congress to the R's when he did amazing things with the economy. Just think if he had congress his last 6 years he could have made the debt fall, first time since 1969.

How long of your tax cuts my friends losing policy until you admit tax cuts are damaging? Try, never. Ideologues never change their positions.

[airdvr 210]

You always leave out the one factor that is difficult to measure...the H factor. I believe this recession has lasted longer than it should have for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the comfort level of the average american wage earner. What they've seen in the last 22 months is a rookie President who was given tremendous power...namely congress. In that short period of time he's been able to push through the stimulus package and HC.

The average guy is wondering how in the hell he is gonna pay for all of this and he's nervous. The two words 'tax cut' are music to his ears. Everyone knows it won't amount to much in his pocket but it makes him feel better. And when he feels better he'll pony up for some expenses that he'd been delaying.

And that's when you start to have a recovery..

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[wmw999 2,589]

I am the type to get hung up on that kind of language. I've called others on it, too. Just as turtle (I think it was) posted earlier, as soon as someone sees something like that, they quit reading. And if they quit reading you've lost part of your audience. Who are you trying to convince: people who already agree with you, or those who disagree?

As far as tax cuts, well, the Danes and Swedes are extremely happy with their far-more-heavily-taxed systems. I could easily see myself being very happy there. But I think that it would be a reach to say that most Americans would be happy there, and the best government is one that works for the people it actually has to govern, just as the best project is one that can actually be accomplished by the people available to work it.

I'm not sure what word was typoed into betetrment, so I can't really go there.

I think both taxing and spending are important to cutting the debt. It's partly an emotional feeling, but just as individuals who are "highly leveraged" (i.e. mortgaged to the hilt, and dependent on outside forces like jobs and the economy to maintain solvency) aren't really in good shape, I don't think that the US with its current debt is in good shape.

With the economy the way it is, I don't think that any government actions are going to look good, and that's going to polarize more and more people until it comes back. And it's not going to come back until we quit swinging wildly back and forth on what it takes to improve.

Adjusting the thermostat up or down 10 degrees every time it goes a degree up or down doesn't make the room more comfortable in the long run. But there are an awful lot of smart people who really think that a global financial collapse would have been worse than what we've gone through -- ya know, I might just not have all the answers.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[lawrocket 3]

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So all the data I post is a product of emotionalism?

Yes. Because you couch the data in emotional terms.

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Or is it how you escape from actually having to address the data?

Considering that not even YOU think the data can speak for itself - and it must be presented with skewed insults - then the data is unworthy of discussion. Perhaps if you simply posted the data for discussion it would be discussed. Since you havent' done that, then it won't be discussed.

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The tax cuts will expire and 200/250k and below won't get their meaningless tax cut,

It's meaningless? So get rid of it.

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Just think if he had congress his last 6 years he could have made the debt fall, first time since 1969.

WOW! So now you ARE saying that the "Clinton surpluses" were not, in fact, surpluses because the surplus was borrowed from Social Security! By the way - the GOP did that.

Obama has become Clinton II so far. I think Obama's only hope of two terms is to get GOP Majority in both houses during this election. Recall that if Clinton would have been up for reelection in '94 and ran unopposed he would have lost.

I don't think this country has run better in recent memory than when there is a Democrat POTUS and a GOP Congress.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[idrankwhat 0]

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the GOP is not in a pickle, not sure on what planet you think that is true.

What they have is an election where they will be making massive gains, and could take one or both chambers of Congress. ...

But will they gain enough to grab 60 votes in the Senate, the new bar set by the Republicans in order to get anything accomplished? Or will we return to the days when 50% (or less) represents the "will of the people"? I'd hate to think the latter was the case. That would appear hypocritical to the current 60% "minority"

[Lucky... 0]

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You always leave out the one factor that is difficult to measure...the H factor.

Is that lame for Hussein? And this is your opninion-based genius rant? Amazing how the drones today blame FDR for making the GD last toolong too; these geniuses actually look away from who and how we got there and blame those who try to fix the mess for the origination of the mess.

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I believe this recession has lasted longer than it should have for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the comfort level of the average american wage earner.

Let's test your inanity. http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States

- 1990 recession: Wasn't that deep, unemployment never got that high, 7.8% and it touched there, not skyrocketed there, it was actually stable. Therecession last 8 months per the NBER, but recovery took years, unemp didn't drop below 6% until Sep, 1994, 3 1/2 years after the official end of the recession and that recession wasn't even comparable to this mess.

The Great Recession is only 2nd to the Great Depression which took > 11 years to recover from. Seriously, you are underestimating the severity of this mess and you are doing so for obvious reasons. So if this mess takes all of Obama's term to fix, he'll be way ahead of schedule. But what can you do, what can you argue? It was your party who got us here so all you can do is to complain of the recovery and deny culpability in getting us here.

How this for reco0very: http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdp_glance.htm

That recovery is unprecedented in all of US historical GDP data and you say Obama is taking too long . But what can you do, argue the cause of the recession? Really, your turd took a robust economy, surplus and turned it into crap so what can you do w/o admitting your party is AFU?

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What they've seen in the last 22 months is a rookie President who was given tremendous power...namely congress.

WOW, 22 months? And Obama has only been president for 20 months. Sweet Pea, trying to exadgerate Obama's time to try to give him ownership of your party's mess is tarded. And Clinton had that power and he fixed it in just those 2 years, the rest was gridlock. GWB had that for the first 6 yeards and that was all it took to tank it.

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In that short period of time he's been able to push through the stimulus package and HC.

And this has extended the recession, in your mind, exactly how? The stimulus took an unemp in freefall, 3.4% the previous year, and ended the bleeding in 9 months. Took a massively negative GDP and turned it enormously positive. HC hasn't had a ral impact yet and hasn't raised taxes yet, so that's no argument.

What yu're doing is saying you hate Obamacare therefore Obama is taking too long to recover teh economy. Inanity.

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The average guy is wondering how in the hell he is gonna pay for all of this and he's nervous.

Now you speak for the average guy. This average guy wondered how GWB was gonna pay for the tax cuts and I found out; increased teh debt 5 trillion bucks.

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The two words 'tax cut' are music to his ears. Everyone knows it won't amount to much in his pocket but it makes him feel better.

Right, because joe public is an idiot who thinks:

- Tax cuts are going to affect his wallet.

- He can't research simple data that shows everytime there is a major tax cut things go to fuck.

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And when he feels better he'll pony up for some expenses that he'd been delaying.

He doeesn't have real money anyway, so what he does or doesn't do really doesn't change anything anyway, except for the warm/fuzzy feeling he may get.

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And that's when you start to have a recovery..

Really? Here I thought it was when the rich were required to reinveest rather than profit take, as all data suggests.

[skipbelt 0]

wendy p , i'm really lovin on you in this thread , i mean that in an encouraging way.
as for topic
libs in favor of high taxes NEVER pre empt them. in deference to wendy p , i didn't say all , but in this case i definitely incinuated it !

[airdvr 210]

Republiturds in a pickle.

You must have missed this.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/mood_of_america_archive/generic_congressional_ballot/september_2010/generic_congressional_ballot_republicans_48_democrats_36

Only a couple of months left. Enjoy them while you can.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Lucky... 0]

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I am the type to get hung up on that kind of language. I've called others on it, too. Just as turtle (I think it was) posted earlier, as soon as someone sees something like that, they quit reading. And if they quit reading you've lost part of your audience. Who are you trying to convince: people who already agree with you, or those who disagree?

I do it for fun as the neo-cons aren't going to answer anyway, so it just frames itin a way that is fun. If I have a substantive answer to a real question, I don;t care about peripheral BS; too sanctimonious.

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As far as tax cuts, well, the Danes and Swedes are extremely happy with their far-more-heavily-taxed systems. I could easily see myself being very happy there. But I think that it would be a reach to say that most Americans would be happy there, and the best government is one that works for the people it actually has to govern, just as the best project is one that can actually be accomplished by the people available to work it.

No offense, but this fluffy BS. I'm looking for hard counter data that shows how tax cuts actually help.

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I'm not sure what word was typoed into betetrment, so I can't really go there.

I wrote: As for the issue, I've seen you state before that tax cuts create betetrment, that is my paraphrasation.

Are you shitting me, now you're ducking and running due to 2 letters out of order. Whata joke, I've looked at you as more of a serious poster. Obviously that word is, "betterment."

So you still runnin or are you going to show me a major fed tax cut thathas actually created BETTERMENT for society? Do run-run. If I can't answer a question, gte sticky looking for typos, etc, I, inside realize I have no argument. This is where you are to me right now. You're better that than to use a typo to run from an issue.

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I think both taxing and spending are important to cutting the debt. It's partly an emotional feeling,...

This is not a soap opera, a fashion show etc, we need deliberate thought using empirical process to figure it out, not emotion.

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... but just as individuals who are "highly leveraged" (i.e. mortgaged to the hilt, and dependent on outside forces like jobs and the economy to maintain solvency) aren't really in good shape, I don't think that the US with its current debt is in good shape.

OK, so tehy aren't in good shape in any economy....so??????

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With the economy the way it is, I don't think that any government actions are going to look good, and that's going to polarize more and more people until it comes back. And it's not going to come back until we quit swinging wildly back and forth on what it takes to improve.

Well, politics as they are, we have endless reformers coming to bat, so get used to it.

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Adjusting the thermostat up or down 10 degrees every time it goes a degree up or down doesn't make the room more comfortable in the long run. But there are an awful lot of smart people who really think that a global financial collapse would have been worse than what we've gone through -- ya know, I might just not have all the answers.

Wendy P.

I see a lot of nothing solid here, just a, "gee it's all messed up and I wish it wasn't" kind of response. Wendy, do tax cuts help or hurt? You have to have seen all of my data I posted, obviously, for some reason, you are unwilling to post the obvious: TAX CUTS FUCK THINGS UP. Our best years as a nation were under heavy taxes, now I'm not saying we should go to 90% again, but 60-70 would be good.

And remember, few pay those taxes, they take their profits and reinvest as a writeoff, which stimulates growth. Historically that has been proven time and again.

Now, care to actually address the issue?

[Lucky... 0]

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So all the data I post is a product of emotionalism?

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Yes. Because you couch the data in emotional terms.

And you're a fucking lawyer? I don't know what area you practice in, but generally you ahve to grow a thick skin. Truth is you would rather pretend to have your feelings hurt than to defend tax cuts where there is no data to show they do good things.

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Or is it how you escape from actually having to address the data?

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Considering that not even YOU think the data can speak for itself

Bullshit, it all speaks for itself.

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- and it must be presented with skewed insults -

Cry me a fucking river, I insult the ideology, which is very supportable, not the person.

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then the data is unworthy of discussion.

Exactly, this allows you an escape from having to SHOW US ONE FUCKING MAJOR FED TAX CUT THAT HAS HELPED. Instead sit there and wipe your eyes.

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Perhaps if you simply posted the data for discussion it would be discussed. Since you havent' done that, then it won't be discussed.

I'll start a thread and be completely w/o any hurty words for those with sensitivity issues and we'll see the usual suspects running teh same usual way. Just admit it's part of your ideology and you're sticking to your story w/o deliberate thought.

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The tax cuts will expire and 200/250k and below won't get their meaningless tax cut,

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It's meaningless? So get rid of it.

Yea, I say Obama should just let all tax cuts expire, he's trying to help teh little guy tho.

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Just think if he had congress his last 6 years he could have made the debt fall, first time since 1969.

WOW! So now you ARE saying that the "Clinton

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surpluses" were not, in fact, surpluses because the surplus was borrowed from Social Security! By the way - the GOP did that.

Show me what you're talking about via data/ev otehr than RW rag. Is that better? Feelings doing ok?

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Obama has become Clinton II so far.

Yes, the longest growth period in US history and you act as tho it's bad????? WTF?

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I think Obama's only hope of two terms is to get GOP Majority in both houses during this election. Recall that if Clinton would have been up for reelection in '94 and ran unopposed he would have lost.

No way, the young vote will come out in 2012, not 2010 unfortunately and reelect him. Youth are tired of crusty old WASP maggots tying to cut education funding and sending them to war in the name of patriotism.

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I don't think this country has run better in recent memory than when there is a Democrat POTUS and a GOP Congress.

So Clinton's first 2 years with a Dem congress where he raised taxes 9% top brkt which laid the base for a hugely sucessful presidency weren't good? The following 6 years of gridlock were good for what? Clinton's major changes took place in his 1st 2 years in office.

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[Lucky... 0]

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the GOP is not in a pickle, not sure on what planet you think that is true.

What they have is an election where they will be making massive gains, and could take one or both chambers of Congress. ...

But will they gain enough to grab 60 votes in the Senate, the new bar set by the Republicans in order to get anything accomplished? Or will we return to the days when 50% (or less) represents the "will of the people"? I'd hate to think the latter was the case. That would appear hypocritical to the current 60% "minority"

Repubs are the kings of reconcilliation, yet they act as tho they aren't.

[Lucky... 0]

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wendy p , i'm really lovin on you in this thread , i mean that in an encouraging way.
as for topic
libs in favor of high taxes NEVER pre empt them. in deference to wendy p , i didn't say all , but in this case i definitely incinuated it !

1) And you correct spelling? I won't let you suck me into the spelling Nazi thing.

2) YAY Wendy http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funnypics/images/g/gay_cheerleader-12791.jpg Lovin Wendy in this thread - YAY

[Lucky... 0]

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Republiturds in a pickle.

You must have missed this.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/mood_of_america_archive/generic_congressional_ballot/september_2010/generic_congressional_ballot_republicans_48_democrats_36

Only a couple of months left. Enjoy them while you can.

It's typical for moronic American voters to rebel againstthe party in power. Sure the R's will gain seats, this tax isssue could be the pickle that doesn't give them the majority in either house.

Again, the youth will turnout and vote Obama in 2012, and they will also vote D for all congressional positions, so whatever happens here will be temporary.

[turtlespeed 226]

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the GOP is not in a pickle, not sure on what planet you think that is true.

What they have is an election where they will be making massive gains, and could take one or both chambers of Congress. ...

But will they gain enough to grab 60 votes in the Senate, the new bar set by the Republicans in order to get anything accomplished? Or will we return to the days when 50% (or less) represents the "will of the people"? I'd hate to think the latter was the case. That would appear hypocritical to the current 60% "minority"

What will be funny is the flip in the liberal way of thinking when "certain strategys" are used to pass bills that are being fillibustered by the minority group.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[lawrocket 3]

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So all the data I post is a product of emotionalism?

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Yes. Because you couch the data in emotional terms.

And you're a fucking lawyer? I don't know what area you practice in, but generally you ahve to grow a thick skin. Truth is you would rather pretend to have your feelings hurt than to defend tax cuts where there is no data to show they do good things.

No, not quite. Unfortunately for you, I deal with this crap every day and I know it when I see it. What is the relevance of "Republiturd?" It has no relevance to any listeners. It is only relevant is the speaker wishes to paint himself or herself as somehow superior. The name calling is intended to paint someone on a level beneath you and the topic of conversation becomes that.

The oddest thing is how few people recognize that such language reflects far more on the speaker than on the subject.

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Or is it how you escape from actually having to address the data?

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Considering that not even YOU think the data can speak for itself

Bullshit, it all speaks for itself.

Then put the data up there without the incediary allegations. If you think the facts are in your favor, then stress those facts. You don't do that. Therefore, the inference is that you would rather the data be obfuscated by your subjective feelings. I don't think you are a dumb person, and therefore I recognize that you know this is the case and put the language out there in order to add smoke to the data.

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- and it must be presented with skewed insults -

Cry me a fucking river, I insult the ideology, which is very supportable, not the person.

I'm not crying. Far from it. I'm trying not to laugh because you are presenting it from a self-anointed position as the speaker of the truth (HALLELUJAH!) who fails to indicate any grasp that reasonable minds may differ.

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then the data is unworthy of discussion.

Exactly, this allows you an escape from having to SHOW US ONE FUCKING MAJOR FED TAX CUT THAT HAS HELPED.[\reply]

Helped what? Helped me? Helped my employees? Helped my retirement? Helped the poor? Helped the deficit?

"Helped what?" I've asked you that before and you didn't answer it. And your failure to comprehend that help for one implicates harm for another demonstrates the rampant confusion that you have between subjective feeling and objective reality.

further, it is an indication of your inability to view the interests of those whom you deem unworthy. By calling them Republiturds, you have a much easier time destroying people, businesses and families.

It's not what your use of these terms says about republicans but rather what it says about you. Volumes.

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Instead sit there and wipe your eyes.

I'm too busy wiping my ass.

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Perhaps if you simply posted the data for discussion it would be discussed. Since you havent' done that, then it won't be discussed.

I'll start a thread and be completely w/o any hurty words for those with sensitivity issues and we'll see the usual suspects running teh same usual way. Just admit it's part of your ideology and you're sticking to your story w/o deliberate thought.

I'll admit that it is part of my ideology. But you also don't want to look at things like the 1986 Tax Reform Act and see what it did for federal revenues because your ideology doesn't like it.

Here's this item: When was the last time a US tax increase decreased the federal debt? Or, when was the last time that a federal revenue increase was not outpaced by an increase in federal spending?

NJotice that austerity is being advocated and implemented in Europe? This is because austerity is the only thing that will actually work and the only thing that hadn'tbeen tried.

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The tax cuts will expire and 200/250k and below won't get their meaningless tax cut,

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It's meaningless? So get rid of it.

Yea, I say Obama should just let all tax cuts expire, he's trying to help teh little guy tho.

An admission that tax cuts help. Welcome to the libertarian party.

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Just think if he had congress his last 6 years he could have made the debt fall, first time since 1969.

WOW! So now you ARE saying that the "Clinton

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surpluses" were not, in fact, surpluses because the surplus was borrowed from Social Security! By the way - the GOP did that.

Show me what you're talking about via data/ev otehr than RW rag. Is that better? Feelings doing ok?

So you admitted something and now you want me to show you why you admitted it? It's great how we can agree on something and you'll change your mind.

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Obama has become Clinton II so far.

Yes, the longest growth period in US history and you act as tho it's bad????? WTF?

The longest growth? Who? For Obama? I hate to break it to you, but you just mentioned that this is the second longest recession after the great depression. he's only been in for 22 months.

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I think Obama's only hope of two terms is to get GOP Majority in both houses during this election. Recall that if Clinton would have been up for reelection in '94 and ran unopposed he would have lost.

No way, the young vote will come out in 2012, not 2010 unfortunately and reelect him. Youth are tired of crusty old WASP maggots tying to cut education funding and sending them to war in the name of patriotism.

Neither you nor I are young anymore. I do not speak for youth, nor do you. I speak for myself only. It's actually refreshing.

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I don't think this country has run better in recent memory than when there is a Democrat POTUS and a GOP Congress.

So Clinton's first 2 years with a Dem congress where he raised taxes 9% top brkt which laid the base for a hugely sucessful presidency weren't good?

Yep. I don't think you remember that the GOP hadn't had the House since the 1950's and it was a MASSIVE turnaround because the population was so fed up with it.

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The following 6 years of gridlock were good for what?

If you trust the government to look out for you and do all that is well and good then gridlock is bad. Imagine gridlock while Dubya was trying to go to war. It wouldn't have been good stuff.

Gridlock of government means that you and I don't keep having rules changed on us. I'd like to see more gridlock. Remember when the government shut down du to gridlock? I do. I also recall that life actually went on.

The government that governs best governs least.

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Clinton's major changes took place in his 1st 2 years in office.

No. Clinton's major change took place in November 1994 when he was keen enough to realize, "I have a check on what I want to do."

And please make up your mind. Did the Republicans screw up what Clinton was trying to do or not?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

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[wmw999 2,589]

Sorry, just lost steam, and I'm not going to go do the research. That's why I said that it's my feeling. It's a topic that deserves in-depth study, not the 15 minutes I'd be able to devote, and I've heard fairly convincing arguments on both sides. The problem with picking eras is that there are so many variables, it's hard to say that any single one caused an upswing or downturn. But generally I'm more for doing with less if you have less money; when I was a college student and just after, I drove an old fixer-upper that I did my own work on, and had a roommate. That way I had enough for other stuff. I was 38 before I ever had a car note.

And it was an honest just-not-seeing-it that caused me to question betterment -- I really didn't see it. You'll notice I did call it a typo, which I hope makes it pretty clear that I didn't think it was ignorance. I make plenty of typos too, and I'm sure some of them render my point unintelligible.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's typical for moronic American voters to rebel againstthe party in power. Sure the R's will gain seats, this tax isssue could be the pickle that doesn't give them the majority in either house.

Again, the youth will turnout and vote Obama in 2012, and they will also vote D for all congressional positions, so whatever happens here will be temporary.

No, it's true for all humans to vote against the party in power when life sucks. How do you think a inexperienced black man won for the first time?

in 2012, if those kids are still unemployed, they're not going to vote at all. Typical turnout for the 18-29 group (ie, low) will return.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The problem with picking eras is that there are so many variables, it's hard to say that any single one caused an upswing or downturn.

yes. Lucky doesn't get that the 40-60s had limitations on debt issuance that doesn't exist now (Gold Standard), as well as a Social Security that wasn't subsidizing the deficit the tune of 9 figures each year.