Man Sues Feds Over Handguns

[Kennedy 0]

I considered that, but I doubt it. With Heller and MacDonald on the books, I doubt this court would rule that 18, 19, and 20 year olds don't qualify for a right defined in the bill of rights.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I considered that, but I doubt it. With Heller and MacDonald on the books, I doubt this court would rule that 18, 19, and 20 year olds don't qualify for a right defined in the bill of rights.

Wouldn't that play hell with some aspects of GCA '68, though?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Kennedy 0]

Not sure, but one can only hope.

The actual law being challenged is USC 922(b)(1). There's no law against citizens 18 and over buying handguns in private purchases. 922(x) prevents juveniles from buying and others from selling to juveniles.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Not sure, but one can only hope.

The actual law being challenged is USC 922(b)(1). There's no law against citizens 18 and over buying handguns in private purchases. 922(x) prevents juveniles from buying and others from selling to juveniles.

18 USC 44 *is* GCA '68 - just checked. That was the only place I could remember in Federal law with an age restriction.

Oughta be an interesting case, to be sure.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Kennedy 0]

18 USC 44 § 922

Yep, guess all of chapter 44 is the 68 gun control act with all it's addendums, like Brady background check, etc. Subsection 922 is the unlawful acts section.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[funjumper101 15]

Quote

Quote

A mosque catering to Muslims is like a gun store catering to gun owners. That's the target customer set. Or a church targeting Christians.

You're ignoring the sensitive nature of the locations of these two respective establishments.
That gives just cause to reconsider the placement of them.

The so called "hallowed ground" of lower Manhattan hosts porn shops and bars within the "two blocks from Ground Zero" zone. Porn shops that have been opened since 9/11/01. There is a gay bay with an S&M theme about a block from the site. According to what I have heard, it opened in 2004 or 2005.

Given the REALITY of zoning in lower Manhattan, the concept of lower Manhattan being "hallowed ground" is a fiction marketed to credulous nitwits by callous politicians. There definitely is no shortage of credulous nitwits on the right.

Clearly the folks who have fallen for this particular marketing scheme have never been anywhere near lower Manhatttan.

[Meso 38]

I actually support the possession of firearms, but 18? God damn that's young. You're not allowed to drink until 21, but you may carry a gun? That makes very little sense to me. The reason for alcohol restriction is because the feeling is by 18 people aren't mature enough to know how to control themselves with the liquor, what makes them mature enough to know how to behave with a gun?

Here in South Africa the minimum age is 21, which seems about right to me. While there is not a huge gap in common sense in those 3 years there is definitely an increase. At 18 many people are still trying to be bad ass to impress their peers.

[Erroll 80]

Quote

I actually support the possession of firearms, but 18? God damn that's young. You're not allowed to drink until 21, but you may carry a gun? That makes very little sense to me. The reason for alcohol restriction is because the feeling is by 18 people aren't mature enough to know how to control themselves with the liquor, what makes them mature enough to know how to behave with a gun?

Here in South Africa the minimum age is 21, which seems about right to me. While there is not a huge gap in common sense in those 3 years there is definitely an increase. At 18 many people are still trying to be bad ass to impress their peers.

What is the minimum age for enlistment in the US?

(When I was 18 I was a qualified platoon leader and instructor and I had spent time on the border.)

[Meso 38]

Which is a whole different issue, which I feel the same about.

It's 17 in the US with parental agreement and 18 without as far as I know. And before that was 16, if I'm not mistaken.

Definitely a big problem when you're old enough to kill and be killed but not old enough to consume alcohol. I don't support alcohol consumption but when one can be a kid at war but not that, something is wrong.

For the same reason too, many 18 year olds are definitely not mature enough to be behind a gun. Especially when the "yeah I wanna kill shit" ignorant attitude is present in many still (not to say that doesn't go away with time in some).

Without meaning to offend, the reason I believe the age is so young with military enlistment is because it's far easier to manipulate teenage boys into enrolling. Just throw them a patriotic speech and talk about how girls love it and you're basically done.

Though since you live in S.A too, you may have even been forced to join as it was compulsary back in the day if I'm not mistaken.

[Erroll 80]

Quote

I don't support alcohol consumption but when one can be a kid at war but not that, something is wrong.

My sentiments exactly.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

What is the minimum age for enlistment in the US?
(When I was 18 I was a qualified platoon leader and instructor and I had spent time on the border.)

The military analogy is weak; it doesn't translate well to civilian 18 year olds. In most miltaries, 18 year olds are given some rather brisk and intensive training in discipline; and they are generally under fairly strict supervision while in possession of firearms.

Perhaps an amendment of the law, for example, that any civilian between 18 & 21 who wants to have the same treatment under the gun laws as those at least 21 years old must have spent at least 1 year in military active duty and received an honorable discharge? Of course, that's a compromise, and an attempt (by me) to approach this rationally and not emotionally, each of which have absolutely no place in any American's discussion about guns.

As an aside, the 2nd Amendment is silent as to minimum age, except with regard to the reference about "militia". A whole 'nuther angle of discussion...

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

I actually support the possession of firearms, but 18? God damn that's young. You're not allowed to drink until 21, but you may carry a gun? That makes very little sense to me. The reason for alcohol restriction is because the feeling is by 18 people aren't mature enough to know how to control themselves with the liquor, what makes them mature enough to know how to behave with a gun?

Here in South Africa the minimum age is 21, which seems about right to me. While there is not a huge gap in common sense in those 3 years there is definitely an increase. At 18 many people are still trying to be bad ass to impress their peers.

So . . . before they raise the hand gun law to 21, they should restrict the enlistment to the armed forces to 21.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,587]

Quote

any civilian between 18 & 21 who wants to have the same treatment under the gun laws as those at least 21 years old must have spent at least 1 year in military active duty and received an honorable discharge

I kind of like that. If nothing else, it makes it extremely likely that they will have had education. Kind of like how drivers have to take drivers' ed to get their license before 18.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Quote

any civilian between 18 & 21 who wants to have the same treatment under the gun laws as those at least 21 years old must have spent at least 1 year in military active duty and received an honorable discharge

I kind of like that. If nothing else, it makes it extremely likely that they will have had education. Kind of like how drivers have to take drivers' ed to get their license before 18.

Wendy P.

Maybe we could issue learners permits

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skipbelt 0]

you're on to something here !

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

I actually support the possession of firearms, but 18? God damn that's young.

I worry a lot more about eighteen year olds with cars.

The body count is about 40X higher for automobile accident fatalities than firearms even though we have more guns in the country.

There's only a 4:1 difference between motor vehicle accidents and firearms murders; although the later is still exceedingly unlikely when you avoid risk factors like being black, in a youth gang, or involved in the illegal drug market.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I actually support the possession of firearms, but 18? God damn that's young. You're not allowed to drink until 21, but you may carry a gun? That makes very little sense to me. The reason for alcohol restriction is because the feeling is by 18 people aren't mature enough to know how to control themselves with the liquor, what makes them mature enough to know how to behave with a gun?

At 18, we treat people are adults. They can vote, drive cars without parental consent/responsibility, have sex with other > 18 yo's, sign contracts, be drafted or enlist. 18 year olds are treated by the criminal system as adults as well, with full penalties.

I don't see a good legal defense for denying them the right to purchase handguns, or to drink.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Quote

I actually support the possession of firearms, but 18? God damn that's young. You're not allowed to drink until 21, but you may carry a gun? That makes very little sense to me. The reason for alcohol restriction is because the feeling is by 18 people aren't mature enough to know how to control themselves with the liquor, what makes them mature enough to know how to behave with a gun?

At 18, we treat people are adults. They can vote, drive cars without parental consent/responsibility, have sex with other > 18 yo's, sign contracts, be drafted or enlist. 18 year olds are treated by the criminal system as adults as well, with full penalties.

I don't see a good legal defense for denying them the right to purchase handguns, or to drink.

Some random points:

I remember during the Vietnam War era when the reduction of the age of majority from 21 to 18 was championed by the slogan, "Old enough to fight; old enough to vote". Then, once the voting & majority age went down, the drinking age quickly (sometimes simultaneously) followed in many states. It seemed fair: how could you draft a kid into mortal harm's way in the Army, yet deny him the right to have a beer because he's too young?

In states that had the 18 year old drinking age, the age began to creep back up over the past decade or so due to MADD's (Mothers Against Drunk Driving's) political campaign showing that alcohol-related motor accidents involving 18-20 year olds were higher in states with the lower age than those with the higher age.

Legal minimum ages for many things are dictated by various factors; among them: concepts of minimum level of maturity needed to be enabled to do certain things. And it varies from one activity to another, such that there need not necessarily be a one-size-fits-all age for everything.

A good example of this is the minimum age to drive a car. Most 13 year-olds could probably learn to drive a car just fine; while on the other hand, they won't be legal adults until they're 18. Yet many states strike the balance between the immature judgment of a 13 year old and the legal majority of an 18 year old to deem that a person is sufficiently mature at age 16 to legally drive.

Similarly, some lawmakers may feel that just because a person is legally an adult at 18, he may not have enough mature judgment to be trusted to drink alcohol, or possess a handgun, until he's 21. So guns are not the only context in which this is done.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Yet many states strike the balance between the immature judgment of a 13 year old and the legal majority of an 18 year old to deem that a person is sufficiently mature at age 16 to legally drive.

For CA, this has always been a qualified priviledge. I got my provisional license at 16 only because my parents signed off and accepted responsibility for any actions I might take. It still isn't until 18 that I had an unrestricted, independent "right" to drive.

The decision to prevent drinking is a case where we eliminated rights for safety. It may have plenty of reason behind it, but it still comes down to that. Troubling.

And since 18 yo's can buy rifles, it seems a bit silly they can't buy handguns. Concealed carry, presumably the concern behind this, is illegal without a CCW in nearly every state - a 18yo that is willing to do that is already willing to obtain a gun improperly.

I prefer laws to deal with actual offense rather than potential ones.

[LongWayToFall 0]

What about a structured method for both?
3.0% beer when you are 16, 5% when 18, the hard stuff when you are 21. Strict laws regarding minors under the influence. I see too many people turn 21 and just start slamming shots, without having ever been drunk before, and this is very dangerous. I started making my own beer before I turned 21, and I feel like it gave me some respect for alcohol.
Same with guns, you could have 16yos allowed to own .22lr pistols and rifles, if they pass a special class teaching them gun safety. Take a class to own a handgun at 18.

The thing that makes me most sick, is when people are totally frightened beyond belief when they see a gun, or hear that a gun is nearby. Same thing with hunting. Just like cars and alcohol, you gotta have respect for the stuff, and it is better if it happens at a younger age (to an extent).

P.S. Fuck California for it's gun laws, alcohol laws, and driving laws. Ugh.

[wmw999 2,587]

And with driving, where younger drivers are sometimes limited to daytimes, or no passengers (other than parents). That's already being done.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

What about a structured method for both?

aside from the implementation details (esp for alcohol), my overall point is that adults should be treated as adults. I'm not comfortable with law that restricts adults for being too young (or old) merely on the basis of age.

[Kennedy 0]

Which brings us back to the issue of a right versus a privilege.

Driving is a privilege. Firearms ownership is a right. Even the US government doesn't have a problem with teenagers owning and possessing handguns. They just don't seem to want teens to be able to buy them in federally license gun shops.

I also happen to think it's important to consider how countries with lower drinking ages tend to have less alcoholism and fewer DWI wrecks. The important things are learning respect at a younger age and having laws that severely punish violations. I believe the same thing is likely to apply to firearms. Taking it from forbidden fruit to respected tool is easy to do at a young age. I don't generally think making things taboo makes for healthy adults.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[wmw999 2,587]

On a completely different note, I'd have to hold this thread up as a good example of a really good discussion. It's kind of fun to read and think over my positions.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skipbelt 0]

Quote

On a completely different note, I'd have to hold this thread up as a good example of a really good discussion. It's kind of fun to read and think over my positions.
Wendy P.

agree wholeheartedly !