Is there a difference between being wrong and lying?

[wmw999 2,589]

Lately there's been talk of Glenn Beck lying about holding Washington's speech. Others are calling it a "mistake."

Where is the line between mistake and lie? And does that line change when one sympathizes with the protagonist?

Is repeating something a lie when you just didn't make any attempt whatsoever to verify it? How about if you were scared to because you like it?

I'm thinking about things like Bush and the famous "yellowcake in Iraq" situation , and now folks are talking about BHO and health care. Is it a lie if predictions don't come about?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[airdvr 210]

I think it's most definitely a lie on Beck's part.

Being wrong about the outcome of something? If you truly believed the outcome would be A and it ended up being B then no. Problem is how can you, as the observer tell if someone truly believed or not.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[BIGUN 1,488]

If he knew the information was inaccurate before the speech, but gave the speech anyway, then it's a lie.
If he gave the speech without having prior knowledge about any inaccuracies, then it was a mistake.
And, in the interest of "journalistic" integrity found out the information was inaccurate after the speech, should correct the mistake with a retraction and/or clarification as to how the inaccuracy occurred while reassuring that future information will be properly vetted.

Ya know, like shit you learn when you're about five years old about making a mistake.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If he knew the information was inaccurate before the speech, but gave the speech anyway, then it's a lie.
If he gave the speech without having prior knowledge about any inaccuracies, then it was a mistake.
And, in the interest of "journalistic" integrity found out the information was inaccurate after the speech, should correct the mistake with a retraction and/or clarification as to how the inaccuracy occurred while reassuring that future information will be properly vetted.

Ya know, like shit you learn when you're about five years old about making a mistake.

I agree, but those are the easy cases.

What if he really wanted it to be true and didn't listen to any arguments to the contrary

What if he was told he was wrong, but he chose not to verify it for himself.

When you know you have plausible deniability, are you wrong or are you lying?

The original question seems so easy, yet is so difficult.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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If he knew the information was inaccurate before the speech, but gave the speech anyway, then it's a lie.
If he gave the speech without having prior knowledge about any inaccuracies, then it was a mistake.
And, in the interest of "journalistic" integrity found out the information was inaccurate after the speech, should correct the mistake with a retraction and/or clarification as to how the inaccuracy occurred while reassuring that future information will be properly vetted.

Ya know, like shit you learn when you're about five years old about making a mistake.

I agree, but those are the easy cases.

What if he really wanted it to be true and didn't listen to any arguments to the contrary

What if he was told he was wrong, but he chose not to verify it for himself.

When you know you have plausible deniability, are you wrong or are you lying?

The original question seems so easy, yet is so difficult.

What is so difficult?

Not listening to contrary arguments or refusing to verify the truth when being told it was wrong are fine examples of intellectual dishonesty.

Plausible deniablity is just a fancy way of saying that you can get away with the lie.

Robert Fulghum was right.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Not listening to contrary arguments or refusing to verify the truth when being told it was wrong are fine examples of intellectual dishonesty.

So is he wrong or is he lying?

[quade 4]

If a person says something with the intent of misrepresenting the facts; it's a lie. What Beck did was a lie because he knew for a fact he hadn't held the document. He even admits he ginned up the story to make it sound "better" than reality. That's an admission of telling a lie.

I'm pretty damn sure everyone here knows I'm no fan of the 43rd Administration but I can't prove GWB himself actually lied. I leave open the possibility other people lied to him and GWB repeated what he simply thought was the truth. It's also horrible position to take though because it means that GWB was little more than a puppet being manipulated by evil forces behind the scenes, but the longer I reflect on the 43rd, the more I'm compelled to take that position. Maybe I just don't want to believe the President of the US, ANY President of the US, is evil. I certainly have no doubts about some of his advisors though. They've repeatedly shown themselves to be evil incarnate.

Yellowcake was most definitely a lie by somebody.
Saddam being linked to 9/11 was absolutely a lie.
That you could protect your home and loved ones from chemical attacks using duct tape and plastic; an incredibly stupid lie or the ravings of a lunatic. You decide.

As for predictions about the future such as being greeted with flower and open arms or that "this" program will fix "that" problem, I don't think those are necessarily lies, but sometimes they're oversold statements of what people hope will happen if everything goes according to plan.

Sadly, the best laid plans . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pirana 0]

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Lately there's been talk of Glenn Beck lying about holding Washington's speech. Others are calling it a "mistake."

Where is the line between mistake and lie? And does that line change when one sympathizes with the protagonist?

Is repeating something a lie when you just didn't make any attempt whatsoever to verify it? How about if you were scared to because you like it?

I'm thinking about things like Bush and the famous "yellowcake in Iraq" situation , and now folks are talking about BHO and health care. Is it a lie if predictions don't come about?

Wendy P.

If a person knew something was false, but portayed it to be true, then they are lying.

If they believed it to be true, and portayed it as such, then it is a lack of knowledge on the topic. Call it ignorance, or a mistake, but it is not a lie.

Predictions not coming true are not lies. For one thing, since the future has not yet happened, and the predicted outcome has not yet occured or failed to occur, there is no way of knowing, and thus no lie can even be made - even if a person wanted to.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Not listening to contrary arguments or refusing to verify the truth when being told it was wrong are fine examples of intellectual dishonesty.

So is he wrong or is he lying?

If there were valid questions about the truth, and he refused to investigate them - Then it's dishonest. It may or may not be definable as a "lie", but it is well beyond being "wrong".

Being deliberately wrong isn't a mistake.

Refusing to verify facts is dishonest.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skipbelt 0]

an ethicist could have a field day with this ,
for example
if you posit something untrue with certainty that it won't be believed is it a lie ?
the earth is flat
if you posit something true with certainty that it won't be believed is it a lie ?
i'm royalty
mtf !

[turtlespeed 226]

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Ya know, like shit you learn when you're about five years old about making a mistake.

I agree, but those are the easy cases.

What if he really wanted it to be true and didn't listen to any arguments to the contrary

What if he was told he was wrong, but he chose not to verify it for himself.

When you know you have plausible deniability, are you wrong or are you lying?

The original question seems so easy, yet is so difficult.

Then he would be a leftist arguing for Global Warming.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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Lately there's been talk of Glenn Beck lying about holding Washington's speech. Others are calling it a "mistake."

Where is the line between mistake and lie? And does that line change when one sympathizes with the protagonist?

Is repeating something a lie when you just didn't make any attempt whatsoever to verify it? How about if you were scared to because you like it?

I'm thinking about things like Bush and the famous "yellowcake in Iraq" situation , and now folks are talking about BHO and health care. Is it a lie if predictions don't come about?

Wendy P.

Glenn Beck lied. Impeach him.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Then he would be a leftist arguing for Global Warming.

Or a texan arguing the kids he shot in the back really were a threat to his life.

[billvon 3,120]

>Where is the line between mistake and lie?

Simple. When a republican sees a democrat say something false, it is a devious lie. When a republican sees a republican say something false, it's a simple mistake. (And vice versa.)

[turtlespeed 226]

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Then he would be a leftist arguing for Global Warming.

Or a texan arguing the kids he shot in the back really were a threat to his life.

See it how you want. My analogy is exponentially more valid than yours.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

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Lately there's been talk of Glenn Beck lying about holding Washington's speech. Others are calling it a "mistake."

Where is the line between mistake and lie? And does that line change when one sympathizes with the protagonist?

Huh? I have no idea what this is, but I don't pay any attention to Glenn Beck, or virtually any other political commentator.

FTR, being mistaken is not excusable if you don't even attempt to verify. The duty of care to do this legwork varies, but in his case should be at a higher than average level.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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My analogy is exponentially more valid than yours.

of course it is.

[skipbelt 0]

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My analogy is exponentially more valid than yours.

of course it is.

careful with exponents , the wrong one can diminish , exponentially !