SkyDekker 1,465 #176 September 2, 2010 Wouldn't you support his 1st Amendment right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #177 September 2, 2010 QuoteWouldn't you support his 1st Amendment right? I'll answer your question after mine is answered truthfully.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #178 September 2, 2010 >Hypothetical: >Lets say that they build the mosque. At the grand opening or whatever >ceremony for the opening, they openly admit that everyone that opposed >the mosque was right and it is a great victory to build a mosque so close to >where the terrorist attack on the trade center buildings happened, hence >confirming the conquest. >Would you still whole heartedly support the mosque, it's imam and his >followers? If they did that I'd put them firmly in Westboro Baptist territory - a bunch of assholes. (And I would still support their First Amendment rights, as I support Baptist's First Amendment rights.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #179 September 2, 2010 Quote>Hypothetical: >Lets say that they build the mosque. At the grand opening or whatever >ceremony for the opening, they openly admit that everyone that opposed >the mosque was right and it is a great victory to build a mosque so close to >where the terrorist attack on the trade center buildings happened, hence >confirming the conquest. >Would you still whole heartedly support the mosque, it's imam and his >followers? If they did that I'd put them firmly in Westboro Baptist territory - a bunch of assholes. (And I would still support their First Amendment rights, as I support Baptist's First Amendment rights.) I see, but would it affect your agreement with the placement of the mosque? I'm not disagreeing with you, I agree with your response regarding the 1st Amendment as well. I just don't think that we should be taking that chance.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #180 September 2, 2010 QuoteI'm not disagreeing with you, I agree with your response regarding the 1st Amendment as well. I just don't think that we should be taking that chance. That's a total contradiction. How exactly will you not take that chance without denying them what you agree are their first amendment rights.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #181 September 2, 2010 >I see, but would it affect your agreement with the placement of the >mosque? I don't agree with the placement of the mosque. I don't disagree with it. I think they should put it where THEY want, not wherever you or I want. >I just don't think that we should be taking that chance. You don't think we should allow people religious freedom because of what they MIGHT do at some point in the future? Suppose the owner signed a contract promising not to do what you have described. Would that allay your fears? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #182 September 2, 2010 Quote>I see, but would it affect your agreement with the placement of the >mosque? I don't agree with the placement of the mosque. I don't disagree with it. I think they should put it where THEY want, not wherever you or I want. >I just don't think that we should be taking that chance. You don't think we should allow people religious freedom because of what they MIGHT do at some point in the future? Suppose the owner signed a contract promising not to do what you have described. Would that allay your fears? Contracts can be broken. I said I didn't believe that we should take the chance - Not that I would deny them their rights. There is a difference - unless you are now the thought police.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #183 September 2, 2010 QuoteI said I didn't believe that we should take the chance - Not that I would deny them their rights. So what does that mean? How are you going to not take the chance?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #184 September 2, 2010 >I said I didn't believe that we should take the chance - Not that I >would deny them their rights. Huh? Do you think they should be allowed to build the mosque there or not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #185 September 2, 2010 Quote>I said I didn't believe that we should take the chance - Not that I >would deny them their rights. Huh? Do you think they should be allowed to build the mosque there or not? Allowed . . . yes. Is it right? No.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #186 September 2, 2010 I've read several articles about the guy. He has made some statements that offend the hardcore types in his religion. He seems genuine. If he was the only person involved, it would sound great. Where will the funding come from ? ABC news Quote"We are in the planning stages," said Oz Sultan, spokesman for the center now called Park51. "We have just started the process of fundraising planning." QuoteWhen asked if they would then turn to foreign donors, Sultan replied, "I can't comment on that." Pressed on whether the developers were willilng rule out accepting donations from the governments of Saudi Arabia or Iran, he repeated, "I can't comment on that." Ummm... really? Why not? President Obama has called for transparency in identifying the donors. It seems like a reasonable request. QuoteIran has been designated a sponsor of terrorism by the U.S. government. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #187 September 2, 2010 QuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #188 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #189 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. "I just don't think that we should be taking that chance." How do we not take that chance?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #190 September 2, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Allowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. To be fair, it's only been a problem in the neighborhood on a couple of occasions. Nothing has happened this month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #191 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. "I just don't think that we should be taking that chance." How do we not take that chance? We can't NOT take that chance - But just because we can't, doesn't mean we shouldn't.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #192 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. "I just don't think that we should be taking that chance." How do we not take that chance? We can't NOT take that chance - But just because we can't, doesn't mean we shouldn't. If you agree that the first amendment is more important than your personal opposition to the mosque, I'm afraid that you think we should take the chance.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #193 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. "I just don't think that we should be taking that chance." How do we not take that chance? We can't NOT take that chance - But just because we can't, doesn't mean we shouldn't. If you agree that the first amendment is more important than your personal opposition to the mosque, I'm afraid that you think we should take the chance. I don't believe it should be stopped. I do not believe it should be built. Two different issues.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #194 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. "I just don't think that we should be taking that chance." How do we not take that chance? We can't NOT take that chance - But just because we can't, doesn't mean we shouldn't. If you agree that the first amendment is more important than your personal opposition to the mosque, I'm afraid that you think we should take the chance. I don't believe it should be stopped. I do not believe it should be built. Two different issues. Exactly - you personally don't think it should be built, but you accept that they have the right to build it and that right should not be taken away. Which means that you do think that we should take the chance that the Imam says something incendiary when he opens his new mosque because the alternative (denying his rights) is unnacceptable. Unless by "us not taking that chance" you mean the Imam and his backers deciding that they wont build it after all. But that really doesn't follow at all.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbwing 0 #195 September 2, 2010 I don't get it... So he supports their constitutional rights to build the mosque... But in principle, doesn't think that they should... That means he actually DOES think the mosque should be built??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #196 September 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAllowed . . . yes. Is it right? No. So... if you don't want to stop them, how are you not going to take 'that chance'? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you always should. "I just don't think that we should be taking that chance." How do we not take that chance? We can't NOT take that chance - But just because we can't, doesn't mean we shouldn't. If you agree that the first amendment is more important than your personal opposition to the mosque, I'm afraid that you think we should take the chance. I don't believe it should be stopped. I do not believe it should be built. Two different issues. Exactly - you personally don't think it should be built, but you accept that they have the right to build it and that right should not be taken away. Which means that you do think that we should take the chance that the Imam says something incendiary when he opens his new mosque because the alternative (denying his rights) is unnacceptable. Unless by "us not taking that chance" you mean the Imam and his backers deciding that they wont build it after all. But that really doesn't follow at all. You can try to spin it how you want it to be. I do not agree with what is being done, and why. The fact that the Imam knows what he is doing to be an inflammitory act that is obviously sparking controversy. I don't believe his intentions to be genuine. I don't think the rennovation should take place for that project. I do believe that in principal we can't and shouldn't stop it because of the the 1st amendment. That does NOT mean that I agree with it. This is not a mathmatical equasion. Believing something should't be stopped, is not the same as agreeing with it happening.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #197 September 2, 2010 QuoteI don't get it... So he supports their constitutional rights to build the mosque... But in principle, doesn't think that they should... That means he actually DOES think the mosque should be built??? No. But since he accepts that neither he nor the government have, or should have, any say in the matter or any power to stop it, he does think that we should take the aforementioned chance. The chance of letting them build it and having the Imam turn around and say "Nah nah fooled you!" when it's done.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #198 September 2, 2010 QuoteThat does NOT mean that I agree with it. I know you don't. Nevertheless, you do think that we should take the chance you mentioned because you do think we should let them build it. Saying otherwise is misleading and leads to those stupid "why do you think X... I don't think X... You said X... I never said X you're putting words in my mouth!" bullshit back and forths.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #199 September 2, 2010 >Allowed . . . yes. Agreed. >Is it right? No. I haven't seen anything that would really make it right or wrong. It is desired by the local community, and indeed the council that approved it listed several benefits that the local community would enjoy from it. That seems like a good thing, but that's better decided by the locals than by me. It is violently opposed by right wing extremists, who regularly claim that it's on Ground Zero, it will be a "victory over the US" trophy, that it is run by terrorists and that it will be used as a terror base. They're full of shit and honestly I could care less about them. Your point of "what if?" is a good example of why it might _turn_out_ to be a bad idea. But it is equally likely that it will serve as a demonstration that Muslims aren't all evil, and that by having a very public beneficial effect locally, it could well help to reduce hatred and violence towards Muslims in other parts of the country. That would be a very good thing. So we have a project that might turn out to be a good thing, might turn out to be a bad thing. Sounds like just about every other project in Manhattan. Their neighborhood, their call. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #200 September 2, 2010 Quote>Allowed . . . yes. Agreed. >Is it right? No. I haven't seen anything that would really make it right or wrong. It is desired by the local community, and indeed the council that approved it listed several benefits that the local community would enjoy from it. That seems like a good thing, but that's better decided by the locals than by me. It is violently opposed by right wing extremists, who regularly claim that it's on Ground Zero, it will be a "victory over the US" trophy, that it is run by terrorists and that it will be used as a terror base. They're full of shit and honestly I could care less about them. Your point of "what if?" is a good example of why it might _turn_out_ to be a bad idea. But it is equally likely that it will serve as a demonstration that Muslims aren't all evil, and that by having a very public beneficial effect locally, it could well help to reduce hatred and violence towards Muslims in other parts of the country. That would be a very good thing. So we have a project that might turn out to be a good thing, might turn out to be a bad thing. Sounds like just about every other project in Manhattan. Their neighborhood, their call. I agree . . . let them make the call - Just like a HOA let them put it up for a vote.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
