What about the Mormons?

[Coreece 190]

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Don't worry, I know how to get around the law...would you like a "boring face to face session?"

Ho hum . . . another idle threat of violence from people that can't respond to an intellectual problem of their own making and how "Christian" too.

Ho hum, another example of bigotry and ignorance from those who have nothing better to say.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,611]

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Maybe it would've been best to say "I love it how God can take bad things and use it for the good of those that love him."

Which is basically the same thinking that causes you to mistake a coincidence for a miracle.

Absolutely not, I just don't have a unrealistic idea of what a miracle actaully is.

Absolutely yes. You choose to see everything good as evidence of God's hand, but everything bad as just the way the world works, because God doesn't have to help. It's just selective vision.

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God loves mathematics...if you've read you'd see that He's big on numbers. I mean seriously, look at all the mumbo jumbo numbers you guys have to come up with in order to understand what the hell is going on...and to top if off, you will still admit that there is something out there that is invisible and omnipresent that is needed for your equations to make absolute sense...is that not the reason you have some guy practically living deep in the recesses of Minnesotaa trying to detect this mysterious substance?

Don't get me wrong...I give you guys credit, but I don't think God is impressed.

It's like a little child saying 2+2=4, then another little child saying, no, no, no...2+2=5.

How's that for a barking pig!

Totally irrelevant to what we were just talking about, and makes about as much sense as one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,611]

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you seem to have a bunch of questions...I don't.

Exactly

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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Don't worry, I know how to get around the law...would you like a "boring face to face session?"

Ho hum . . . another idle threat of violence from people that can't respond to an intellectual problem of their own making and how "Christian" too.

Ho hum, another example of bigotry and ignorance from those who have nothing better to say.

Ok Quade...looks like you've given up and my play on words never registered so allow me to explain for you and anyone else that's having the same trouble:

You "get around" the "Law" through Jesus Christ so that you don't have to throw rocks at people to begin with.

I find it interesting that you thought I was talking about getting away with murder...but it's a good thing you noticed that wouldn't be Christian, and that says alot.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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You choose to see everything good as evidence of God's hand, but everything bad as just the way the world works

No, that's not true...bad things have happened to me as a result of God's judgement against me.

...and some of those judgements are just the natural way things work, you play with fire, you get burned...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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you seem to have a bunch of questions...I don't.

Exactly

To me, all those questions sound like something a spoiled rotten ungratefull little brat would say, even though they've been provided with absolutely everything.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,611]

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You choose to see everything good as evidence of God's hand, but everything bad as just the way the world works

No, that's not true...bad things have happened to me as a result of God's judgement against me.

How convenient. I love how in your world people are basically like God's puppets that he manipulates to cause good or bad things to happen to other people as required. It's a very strange way of looking at things.

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To me, all those questions sound like something a spoiled rotten ungratefull little brat would say, even though they've been provided with absolutely everything.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to stop you from thinking.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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How convenient. I love how in your world people are basically like God's puppets that he manipulates to cause good or bad things to happen to other people as required. It's a very strange way of looking at things.

Well lets play it out...

I play with fire and get burned go to the hospital and meet a hot nurse and get married.

It's like God's way of saying here, I don't want you to meet your wife in a bar!

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Whatever you need to tell yourself to stop you from thinking.

There is nothing really wrong with those questions just the tone in which they're asked.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,611]

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How convenient. I love how in your world people are basically like God's puppets that he manipulates to cause good or bad things to happen to other people as required. It's a very strange way of looking at things.

Well lets play it out...

I play with fire and get burned go to the hospital and meet a hot nurse and get married.

Exactly. If God made that happen, then one of you has been manipulated. Either you into playing with fire and burning yourself or her into being in the right place to meet you.

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It's like God's way of saying here, I don't want you to meet your wife in a bar!

Do nice girls not go to bars? And why are you so special that you get to meet your wife in a 'good' place when so many others do meet in bars?

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Whatever you need to tell yourself to stop you from thinking.

There is nothing really wrong with those questions just the tone in which they're asked.

It is notoriously difficult to judge tone on internet forums. If the questions are good then why not take them at face value instead of calling the askers juvenile? And if they're valid, why is it that you avoid asking them?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 226]

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Don't worry, I know how to get around the law...would you like a "boring face to face session?"

Ho hum . . . another idle threat of violence from people that can't respond to an intellectual problem of their own making and how "Christian" too.

Somebody is having trouble telling the difference between an offer for some much needed ministering and an invitation to take it outside and brawl.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreece 190]

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Exactly. If God made that happen, then one of you has been manipulated.

No...it's not manipulation, it's a miracle...Divine intervention...the Wisdom of God working through man's free will in order to fulfill his good pleasure...and mine too btw, you gotta remember I'm the one with a hot brunette nurse for a wife...I don't feel manipulated...maybe she does, but it's hard to tell, she never complains about anything.

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Do nice girls not go to bars?

Did I say that?

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And why are you so special that you get to meet your wife in a 'good' place...

I have a wonderful hot nurse for a wife and all you can think of is why I'm so special because of the place I met her?

The truth is I don't know why I'm so special or even derserve any divine grace...I just know who to thank!

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It is notoriously difficult to judge tone on internet forums.

Not when it's comming from Quade...He is notorious for being a self proclaimed smart ass.

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And if they're valid, why is it that you avoid asking them?

They have absolutely no bearing on my life and I don't sit around all day looking for questions to bolster unbelief...I have all that I need.

*closes laptop and goes off to the beach with hot wife on a tuesday afternoon*

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,611]

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No...it's not manipulation, it's a miracle...Divine intervention...the Wisdom of God working through man's free will in order to fulfill his good pleasure...and mine too btw, you gotta remember I'm the one with a hot brunette nurse for a wife...I don't feel manipulated...maybe she does, but it's hard to tell, she never complains about anything.

But for it to be a miracle, the actions of one of you must have been manipulated in order to get you both into place.

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Did I say that?

You see that squiggly punctuation mark? That means it's a question. You seem to think there's something wrong with meeting a woman in a bar and I'm asking why.

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I have a wonderful hot nurse for a wife and all you can think of is why I'm so special because of the place I met her?

Yes, because you're saying that it was all set up specifically for you so you could meet her in a 'better' place than other people meet their partners.

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The truth is I don't know why I'm so special or even derserve any divine grace...I just know who to thank!

Why? There's nothing about the way you met that means it must be a miracle. Here's some informationl for you - there are a lot of people wandering about. Through the normal course of life you tend to meet quite a few of them. Several of those people will be people you like, and some of them will also like you. It's how human contact works.

You must think we'd all be standing alone in small dark rooms all our lives if God wasn't pulling the strings for us.

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They have absolutely no bearing on my life and I don't sit around all day looking for questions to bolster unbelief...

See, there you go - any way of looking at your belief that means you don't have to actually think about it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,133]

>I play with fire and get burned go to the hospital and meet a hot
>nurse and get married. It's like God's way of saying here, I don't want
>you to meet your wife in a bar!

Well, but it works both ways. If Joe meets Jill in a church, gets married, and Jill is then killed in a freak storm - then it's God's way of saying that he doesn't want people meeting in church.

Or make up your own scenario. Miscarriage? God doesn't want you to have children. Fail a course? God doesn't want you going to school. Avoid a potentially deadly accident when you've been drinking? God doesn't want you driving sober.

And maybe he really does want all those things (or people really think he does.) But it sure seems like people tend to ascribe the good things to God while ignoring or explaining away the bad.

[Coreece 190]

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But for it to be a miracle, the actions of one of you must have been manipulated in order to get you both into place.

I don't think so...we were created to do as we will, but that will not thwart the purposes of God. It diplays His Glory. I chose to play with fire and she chose to go to work.

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You seem to think there's something wrong with meeting a woman in a bar and I'm asking why.

It had never worked out for me...It's a personal thing.

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it was all set up specifically for you so you could meet her in a 'better' place

You are calling it a better place...but for me it really was...I was in the bars looking for what I wanted, not what God wanted, so I got burned. My type of women do not mix well with me...I needed a miracle to keep me from them and that's exactly what I got.

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Here's some informationl for you - there are a lot of people wandering about.

Exactly, and here's some information for you - I came from a very dark place...not your classy wine tasing sophisticated lounge, but rather a very deep dark shithole in a wall...not a place where women nor men should look for love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBxOma7EIRA&p=349B4F1B32F550EE&playnext=1&index=29

Misery:
THERE IS A CHILD AND SHE SLEEPS IN THE GUTTER
DON'T CLOSE YOUR EYES AND SHE'S EASY TO SEE
SHE IS NOT YOUR CHILD
SHE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER'S
AND THOSE YOU ABANDON
THEY ARE LEFT TO ME

AND KNOW I WILL IMPALE HER LIKE A KNIFE
LEAVE HER TWISTING DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY OF A VERY SHORT LIFE WITH ME

LISTEN NOW CLOSELY AND HEAR HOW I'VE PLANNED IT, PLEASE LET ME TELL YOU JUST HOW IT WILL BE

SHE'LL FEEL THE PAIN BUT SHE WON'T UNDERSTAND IT, SHE'LL THINK IT'S HER FATE, BUT WE'LL KNOW IT'S ME

AND KNOW I WILL IMPALE HER LIKE A KNIFE
LEAVE HER TWISTING DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY OF A VERY SHORT LIFE WITH ME

SO LET ME KNOW
HAVE I BEEN CLEAR
THAT I WILL MAGNIFY EACH CUT AND EVERY BRUISE AND EVERY SINGLE CHILDHOOD TEAR

I'LL PICK HER SCABS
CRIPPLE A HAND
PUSH A FINGER IN EACH WOUND I MAKE
NOW TELL ME THEN
DO YOU UNDERSTAND
YOU UNDERSTAND?
YOU UNDERSTAND
YOU UNDERSTAND?
YOU UNDERSTAND

AND KNOW I WILL IMPALE HER LIKE A KNIFE
LEAVE HER TWISTING DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY OF A VERY SHORT LIFE
WITH ME

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You must think we'd all be standing alone in small dark rooms all our lives if God wasn't pulling the strings for us.

For many people that is the truth, which is why I'm there.

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See, there you go - any way of looking at your belief that means you don't have to actually think about it.

I don't have to think about it...I see shit just about everyday that I could use to shove a middle finger up God's ass, but I chose to live by faith...and the evidence in this life trumps anything you can say or do to me.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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>I play with fire and get burned go to the hospital and meet a hot
>nurse and get married. It's like God's way of saying here, I don't want
>you to meet your wife in a bar!

Well, but it works both ways. If Joe meets Jill in a church, gets married, and Jill is then killed in a freak storm - then it's God's way of saying that he doesn't want people meeting in church.

Or make up your own scenario. Miscarriage? God doesn't want you to have children. Fail a course? God doesn't want you going to school. Avoid a potentially deadly accident when you've been drinking? God doesn't want you driving sober.

And maybe he really does want all those things (or people really think he does.) But it sure seems like people tend to ascribe the good things to God while ignoring or explaining away the bad.

Well, you're a Christian, you're wise...

How about you resolve the Wisdom of God's Sovereignty with that of human freewill?

It's never been done...perhaps u da man!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 3,133]

>How about you resolve the Wisdom of God's Sovereignty with that of
>human freewill?

1) I don't think there's a conflict.

2) One of the things we've learned from science over the past few decades is that not only is it hard to know the future, it's actually impossible - the act of observing it alters it. So not only are there things we don't know, there are things we can't know. Which means that predestination is not really possible; there is no one path you can guarantee will come to be.

[jakee 1,611]

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I don't think so...we were created to do as we will, but that will not thwart the purposes of God. It diplays His Glory. I chose to play with fire and she chose to go to work.

Then it wasn't a miracle. It's just life happening.

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It had never worked out for me...It's a personal thing.

So why did God decide that you deserved better? So many hundreds of millions of people in the world trapped in failed relationships but God thinks that you need to be helped into a good one. Why do you think you're so special?

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You must think we'd all be standing alone in small dark rooms all our lives if God wasn't pulling the strings for us.

For many people that is the truth, which is why I'm there.

So what is it? God makes us do things, or we do things by choice?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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Then it wasn't a miracle. It's just life happening.

Life happening is the miracle.

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Why do you think you're so special?

I don't know, but it's humbling to think about...for obvious reasons.

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So what is it? God makes us do things, or we do things by choice?

Both.

I would really like to see a mathematical equation for that one...anybody up for the challenge?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[DSE 5]

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Why do you think you're so special?

I don't know, but it's humbling to think about...for obvious reasons.

[jakee 1,611]

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Life happening is the miracle.

Life can't not happen.

Again - people walk around and meet other people. It's how life works. If you examine, in isolation, the chain of coincidences that lead to you meeting the people you do then many of them will seem incredibly unlikely. But they're really not. If you go to a hospital, you will meet nurses. If it wasn't the one you did meet, it would have been a different nurse, and it would have been just as unlikely that you met that particular one.

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I don't know, but it's humbling to think about...for obvious reasons.

No, it's the opposite of humbling, it's unbelievably narcissistic. The idea that the most powerful being in the universe is orchestrating the lives of those around you so that you can get something good. It's the most self centred thing I've ever heard.

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I would really like to see a mathematical equation for that one...anybody up for the challenge?

What the hell do you mean?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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No, it's the opposite of humbling, it's unbelievably narcissistic. The idea that the most powerful being in the universe is orchestrating the lives of those around you so that you can get something good. It's the most self centred thing I've ever heard.

Ultimately, it's not about me...it's about sacrafice and dying to yourself, but sometimes there are a few perks.

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I would really like to see a mathematical equation for that one...anybody up for the challenge?

What the hell do you mean?

Jakee, I love you man...you crack me up!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,611]

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Ultimately, it's not about me...it's about sacrafice and dying to yourself, but sometimes there are a few perks.

You just said it was about you. You said that God was orchestrating your life because he wanted you to have better things than you had before.

You think that out of all the people out there trapped in unfulfilling, even destructive, relationships, God has decided that you deserve better. Because you're special, because you're important. Yeah, real humbling...

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Jakee, I love you man...you crack me up!

Glad to be of service - but seriously though, WTF were you talking about?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,133]

>Life happening is the miracle.

I take it you've never made beer or tried to keep a bad wound sterile . . .

[Coreece 190]

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You just said it was about you. You said that God was orchestrating your life because he wanted you to have better things than you had before.

I said God works all things for the good of those who love him...but I think your idea of good is different from what God thinks is good, and what I've learned it to be.

The truth is I'm not married to a hot nurse...I'm not married at all...I thought we were playing it out...It was a miserable attempt at showing how God could use a bad thing and turn it into a good thing...but there were some elemets of truth in there.

I did date a hot student nurse in college for awhile, and later found a paralegal/law student who I met in a bar with whom I had a baby...the first few years were marvelous, pratically living as an athiest...but then it became a living hell...it was the beginning of the end for me...God started to break me down...I began to reap what I've sown.

I had worked hard in various legit business and got along wonderfully with those I liked, but I was also a hard heated cynical bastard and schemer...by the age of 12 I had already played a significant role in bringing down a local franchise of a national chain...It hurts me to think that If God didn't break me, I could very likely be among the secret handshaking elite helping to drive this country into the ground for their own personal gain...

Anyways, I had it all...but after three years with my family, all my greed, pride and lust for the world turned against me and I practically lost just about everything over night...I praticaully lived in hell for 3 years forced to live and befreind all the people I despised and continued to indulge in my own evil desires...God continued to break me down, and it felt like anything I did, no matter how close I came to rebuling my life God would crush it...I didn't understand it...my plans should've worked, they always have...but all these bizzare coincedences and people reniggin on their word and deals fallin through just broke me down even more...

I finally said fuck it and ended up in Vegas for my final stand against God...

It was my last chance to to hold onto everything me...my achievements, my pride, my chance to make everything "right" in the wrong way...and I almost made it...what a blast, shit was looking good...I thought "I'm gonna come out this looking better than when I was king of my own world."

But noooooooooo...Vegas tore me up like the bitch I was. I wasn't fit to live in their world. I was finally completly broken, humiliated, and ashamed...

On that long, humbling ride back to Detroit all I pretty much did was contemplate God.

A few months later I ended up in Clearwater Beach, FL for a Job at the Golf Channel, but that fell through as well...but by this time I had started studying the Bible and was completely fascinated with the character of Jesus...and was completely at peace. I just prayed and asked the Lord not to break me like he did in California and Vegas...I said I don't completly understand this Jesus Guy, but I believe that He is your Son...I really need you this time, everything I do now gets crushed, just show me whats up...

...And that's it...that was the end of that life.

I'd love to go on and tell you all the amazing things that has happened to me since then and all the adventures around the country and how God has restored me but I've gone on long enough and I usually just save those stories for those who want to believe.

All I'll say for now is I find it amazing that when I was in Clearwater, I had nothing but God and it was the happiest, greatest most adventurous time of life.

I don't have nearly as much worldy possessions as I had when I lived for myself, but all I need is provided and I'm happy with what I have and finally free from that bondage....I'm free from the bondage of myself and free to live for others as God directs me.

I have resources and places available to me around the world for God to use me when needed, and He does....There is even a place in England that I have yet to visit...maybe I'll meet you some day.

And just in case you're wondering, I actually did try to go it alone and fulfill my own ungodly desires once again...and the same thing happned as before...crushed. I basically used up all my get out of jail free cards...I'm a slave to Christ, and I like it here, don't bother trying to break me out.

Now I apologize for going on and on...feel free to break it down if you want. People can call me a weak ignorant puppet sheep, but I simply don't care...I am a sheep...a sheep is a stupid animal that just tends to go off in it's own direction and I need guidance.

...and that guidance sets me at peace and I'm happier than ever...The only problem is that sinful nature still in me that pops up from time to time and I want it gone...I expect God to fulfill His promise in making that happen, just as he fufills all his promises...ultimately for His own glory.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,611]

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I said God works all things for the good of those who love him...but I think your idea of good is different from what God thinks is good, and what I've learned it to be.

No, this is your idea of good we've been talking about. It was your lie, not mine.

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The truth is I'm not married to a hot nurse...I'm not married at all...I thought we were playing it out...It was a miserable attempt at showing how God could use a bad thing and turn it into a good thing...but there were some elemets of truth in there.

Really? We've not found any yet.

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Anyways, I had it all...but after three years with my family, all my greed, pride and lust for the world turned against me and I practically lost just about everything over night...I praticaully lived in hell for 3 years forced to live and befreind all the people I despised and continued to indulge in my own evil desires...God continued to break me down, and it felt like anything I did, no matter how close I came to rebuling my life God would crush it...I didn't understand it...my plans should've worked, they always have...but all these bizzare coincedences and people reniggin on their word and deals fallin through just broke me down even more...

Right... you make unsavoury deals with unsavoury people, and the only possibly explanation for them fucking you over is that God made them do it. Yeah, ok dude.

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I finally said fuck it and ended up in Vegas for my final stand against God...Laugh

It was my last chance to to hold onto everything me...my achievements, my pride, my chance to make everything "right" in the wrong way...and I almost made it...what a blast, shit was looking good...I thought "I'm gonna come out this looking better than when I was king of my own world."

But noooooooooo...Vegas tore me up like the bitch I was. I wasn't fit to live in their world. I was finally completly broken, humiliated, and ashamed...

Wow, you went to Vegas and came out a broken man? Now that really is remarkable, I can definitely see the hand of God in that one.

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And just in case you're wondering, I actually did try to go it alone and fulfill my own ungodly desires once again...and the same thing happned as before...crushed. I basically used up all my get out of jail free cards...I'm a slave to Christ, and I like it here, don't bother trying to break me out

Exactly. Which (again) is why you continue to avoid actually thinking about your beliefs. You like them, so you just ignore the contradictions.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?