Cordoba Mosque = The Conquest of Manhattan

[turtlespeed 226]

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It's also naive on your part to think that the name has anything to do with anyone opposing the mosque.

That is a good point.

Not very many opposers even bother to study that far into it. It is a "Mob Scare Tactic" designed to do just what it did, incite the movement to oppose.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 906]

Thanks for an honest logical response.
Finally someone did!!!

I'm curious whether this was ever perceived by New Yorkers (this IS their issue after all) had initially seen it as such. Especially given there IS another Mosque in equally as close proximity to Ground Zero.
I didn't see him as unwilling to adjust so much as simply trying to improve the existing facility that they currently use.

[billvon 3,132]

>If he would simply change the location of his mosque to a place that
>doesn't offend New Yorkers, and change the name of the program to build
>it to one that doesn't have "Christian conquest" meaning associated with it,
>then there wouldn't be any further objections, and he could get on with his
>project.

Apparently not:

===============
Tennessee town fights over proposed mosque

August 24, 2010

Muslims trying to build houses of worship in the nation's heartland, far from the heated fight in New York over plans for a mosque near ground zero, are running into opponents even more hostile and aggressive. In the Nashville suburb of Murfreesboro, opponents of a new Islamic center say they believe the mosque will be more than a place of prayer. They are afraid the 15-acre site that was once farmland will be turned into a terrorist training ground for Muslim militants bent on overthrowing the U.S. government.
=============

So no, moving it won't solve anything; changing the location will not mean anything more than changing the name did to the more rabid opponents of this.

Next!

[turtlespeed 226]

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>If he would simply change the location of his mosque to a place that
>doesn't offend New Yorkers, and change the name of the program to build
>it to one that doesn't have "Christian conquest" meaning associated with it,
>then there wouldn't be any further objections, and he could get on with his
>project.

Apparently not:

===============
Tennessee town fights over proposed mosque

August 24, 2010

Muslims trying to build houses of worship in the nation's heartland, far from the heated fight in New York over plans for a mosque near ground zero, are running into opponents even more hostile and aggressive. In the Nashville suburb of Murfreesboro, opponents of a new Islamic center say they believe the mosque will be more than a place of prayer. They are afraid the 15-acre site that was once farmland will be turned into a terrorist training ground for Muslim militants bent on overthrowing the U.S. government.
=============

So no, moving it won't solve anything; changing the location will not mean anything more than changing the name did to the more rabid opponents of this.

Next!

That is only your belief because you want it to be that way.

If they were so concerned about building relationships, "Building Brirdges" i think it was mentioned as, why not ask the groups if that would be satisfactory to them?

It seems that they are posturing to propogate more of this as an example under false pretenses.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

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>If he would simply change the location of his mosque to a place that
>doesn't offend New Yorkers, and change the name of the program to build
>it to one that doesn't have "Christian conquest" meaning associated with it,
>then there wouldn't be any further objections, and he could get on with his
>project.

Apparently not:

===============
Tennessee town fights over proposed mosque

August 24, 2010

Muslims trying to build houses of worship in the nation's heartland, far from the heated fight in New York over plans for a mosque near ground zero, are running into opponents even more hostile and aggressive. In the Nashville suburb of Murfreesboro, opponents of a new Islamic center say they believe the mosque will be more than a place of prayer. They are afraid the 15-acre site that was once farmland will be turned into a terrorist training ground for Muslim militants bent on overthrowing the U.S. government.
=============

So no, moving it won't solve anything; changing the location will not mean anything more than changing the name did to the more rabid opponents of this.

Next!

That is only your belief because you want it to be that way.

If they were so concerned about building relationships, "Building Brirdges" i think it was mentioned as, why not ask the groups if that would be satisfactory to them?

It seems that they are posturing to propogate more of this as an example under false pretenses.

EEEESH......

as you are wont to say... you ASSUME much

[normiss 906]

How many mile radius do you ask in your neighborhood when you want to change something about your house?
Or do you simply apply with the zoning board as required?

[funjumper101 15]

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Freedom of Religion is a core American value, even an athiest like me can see that.
John, if you keep up this Anti-American Bullshit, they are going to kick you out of Texas,
Seriously, John...you're being used as a tool by both the right wing christian fundie wankers and the radical islamic fundie wankers at the same time to further both of their agendas.

And this is why we can't have an honest debate on this issue. You guys want to demonize the folks on the other side of the issue and turn them into anti-American devils.

I would have hoped that readers would have noticed that nowhere did I ever say that anyone should be denied their freedom of religion. That's all in the heads of my detractors, because they like to jump on the demonization bandwagon, rather than to read with a clear mind. Emotional name-calling seems to trump reading what is actually said and thinking rationally.

My argument all along has been that for an Imam professing to want to improve East-West relations, he isn't being very sensitive to American culture. In other words, I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to a mosque, I'm saying he isn't going about building one the right way. It's not an argument against freedom of religion, it's an argument about the effectiveness of his methodology.

If he would simply change the location of his mosque to a place that doesn't offend New Yorkers, and change the name of the program to build it to one that doesn't have "Christian conquest" meaning associated with it, then there wouldn't be any further objections, and he could get on with his project.

If you want to improve relations, you don't do it with an "in your face" style that pisses the people off, with whom you claim to be wanting as friends. And the fact that he is so unwilling to do these simple things, makes people call into question his motives, which detracts from the project.

I hope that clarifies my position.

You have shown what you are by your words. You have NO respect for the Constitution and the ideals of this nation.

If the whole area of South Manhattan is "hallowed ground", why are NEW porn shops and gay bars OK, while a Moslem Community Center is not?

Why is ~25000' acceptable for locating the facility, and ~1000' is not?

The folks in the local area in South Manhattan were cool with the location of the facility, up until a whole bunch of outsiders were whipped into a frenzy by the RWC media machine. Those outsiders have stuck their noses into a local zoning isssue that is none of their business. The old Burlington Coat Factory is private property. I thought that RWCs were all about property rights and minimal goverment interference with it. Hypocracy is the word...

For the record, I have been to New York City several times. I have been to Windows on the World for drinks and appetizers. I have been on the outside viewing platform. I have had dinner at Elaine's. I have been in the Statue of Liberty, the Met, and Times Square. New York City is a truly multi-national, multi-cultural city. A Moslem Community Center in lower Manhattan is totally and completely appropriate.

John, how much time have you spent in NYC?

[turtlespeed 226]

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How many mile radius do you ask in your neighborhood when you want to change something about your house?
Or do you simply apply with the zoning board as required?

You are speakling in different languages - residential is not commercial.

Inside my house - i wouldn't ask. If the renovations met the criteria, i would apply for a permit. Outside my house, it would have to not only meet the 2010 International Building Code, but follow the rules of the HOA. The HOA would vote and it would be approved or not. But that is residential.
This is a political and media problem now. The imam knows that, and instead of actually trying to make amends and "build bridges" they are propogating and posturing.

I ask again. What would be the harm of asking the opposers where it would be suitable for them instaed of trying to make an issue about it?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,132]

>That is only your belief because you want it to be that way.

No. It is in fact true that a Tennessee town is trying to get their mosque banned as well. Thus the statement that "if they'd just build somewhere else then there wouldn't be any further objections" is provably false.

>If they were so concerned about building relationships, "Building Brirdges"
>i think it was mentioned as, why not ask the groups if that would be
>satisfactory to them?

Perhaps they're more interested in worshiping their God as they see fit than in placating bigots.

[jakee 1,611]

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It's also naive on your part to think that the name has anything to do with anyone opposing the mosque.

That is a good point.

Not very many opposers even bother to study that far into it. It is a "Mob Scare Tactic" designed to do just what it did, incite the movement to oppose.

Are you saying that the name was chosen by Imam Feisal specifically to incite a vocal opposition to his project?

I'll point it out yet again, the Cordoba Initiative has been so called for a decade. The cunning bugger has really been playing the long game. But what complaints have there been about it up until now? What mobs has it scared up until now? The name is notscary unless you look for reasons to be scared by it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 906]

It's a privately owned building, the commercial application was approved.
Remind me the issue again?

[turtlespeed 226]

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>That is only your belief because you want it to be that way.

No. It is in fact true that a Tennessee town is trying to get their mosque banned as well. Thus the statement that "if they'd just build somewhere else then there wouldn't be any further objections" is provably false.

>If they were so concerned about building relationships, "Building Brirdges"
>i think it was mentioned as, why not ask the groups if that would be
>satisfactory to them?

Perhaps they're more interested in worshiping their God as they see fit than in placating bigots.

Wait - that isn't what they said though. They said they are trying to build bridges. Are you saying that they are disingenuous?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

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If he would simply change the location of his mosque to a place that doesn't offend New Yorkers, and change the name of the program to build it to one that doesn't have "Christian conquest" meaning associated with it, then there wouldn't be any further objections, and he could get on with his project.

John, exactly how well has this strategy worked in dealing with the gun control crowd? It sounds amazingly similar. They don't want to take away our gun rights (really! snicker), they just don't want to be scared by our black shiny guns. If we just accept some 'common sense' limitations rather than getting in their face about our 2nd amendment rights, then the result would be a happy compromise.

Right?

Not a chance. We know that the Brady fucks don't compromise, they just ask for more. Same for Arab hating Americans armed with misleading information and built in bias and anger from 2001.

Look, either you believe in gun rights, or you don't. We know you do. And either you believe in freedom to practice your own religion, or you don't. So long as people voluntarily accept whatever crazy tenant their religion has (sexism, whatever) and they don't take away from the rights of others, it's kosher.

[billvon 3,132]

>Wait - that isn't what they said though. They said they are trying to
>build bridges. Are you saying that they are disingenuous?

Nope. I'll bet that Muslims are just like every other religion. Some members are freaks that saw their wives (or sons) heads off. Some want to build bridges to people who hate them. Most just want to live their lives as they see fit.

[turtlespeed 226]

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It's also naive on your part to think that the name has anything to do with anyone opposing the mosque.

That is a good point.

Not very many opposers even bother to study that far into it. It is a "Mob Scare Tactic" designed to do just what it did, incite the movement to oppose.

Are you saying that the name was chosen by Imam Feisal specifically to incite a vocal opposition to his project?

I'll point it out yet again, the Cordoba Initiative has been so called for a decade. The cunning bugger has really been playing the long game. But what complaints have there been about it up until now? What mobs has it scared up until now? The name is notscary unless you look for reasons to be scared by it.

Sigh . . .
I almost see how you could read it that way but, no.

The mob that I mentioned is being stirred by the opposers. The tactic is working. Hence John Rich's post.

None of us, and there are some fairly intelligent people here, made any correlation to the placement and history of the name Cordoba until it was brought to John Rich's attention.

It just seems that it (the article) was written that way for the sole purpose of spinning some opposition up against the mosque.

However, I would not completely dismiss the original naming of the Cordoba Initiative as possibly being so named because of the history in which it was placed where it was. Anything is possible.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Wait - that isn't what they said though. They said they are trying to
>build bridges. Are you saying that they are disingenuous?

Nope. I'll bet that Muslims are just like every other religion. Some members are freaks that saw their wives (or sons) heads off. Some want to build bridges to people who hate them. Most just want to live their lives as they see fit.

I notice that you left oout the other half of the deeds discussed. Wait - I think we agreed to compare numbers here didn't we?

How many women are stoned to death by Christians so far this year?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

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How many women are stoned to death by Christians so far this year?

The wars in the former Yugoslavia aren't that far back, you know.

[turtlespeed 226]

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How many women are stoned to death by Christians so far this year?

The wars in the former Yugoslavia aren't that far back, you know.

What number does that represent?

Ballpark?

Or was that a deflection from the question?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 906]

Those were ethnic wars, not religious wars.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Those were ethnic wars, not religious wars.

Bosnian Serbs, who are Christian, committed wide spread genocide against Muslims. Seems to qualify. It may have focused more on killing men, while raping women.

[normiss 906]

Interesting that the world as a whole viewed the most atrocious crimes of those wars as "ethnic cleansing".

[kelpdiver 2]

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Interesting that the world as a whole viewed the most atrocious crimes of those wars as "ethnic cleansing".

Have you ever heard the phrase "religious cleansing?"

Same with the thread of racist applied to religion. The language just doesn't have common use words for it. And it's really hard to divorce the two. One hates another ethnicity for the actions it takes, in concept. Their religion is part of that.

[normiss 906]

In looking at the history of the Yugo wars, there were ethnic problems before the religions came into the areas that were battling, no?
Maybe I missed something because I never saw any mention of religion until the mid to late '90's when NATO and the UN got involved (finally).

[Amazon 7]

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In looking at the history of the Yugo wars, there were ethnic problems before the religions came into the areas that were battling, no?
Maybe I missed something because I never saw any mention of religion until the mid to late '90's when NATO and the UN got involved (finally).

It's been going on for freakin centuries in the Balkans. WWII brought on some really nasty atrocities. Tito managed to put a cap on it for a few decades but when he died... old scores were soon on the table to be settled... everyone lost out in the bloodbath of further Balkanization that is still simmering.

[JohnRich 4]

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You have shown what you are by your words. You have NO respect for the Constitution and the ideals of this nation.

That's a perfect example of what I was talking about, regarding name-calling and rational thinking.
Thank you for the demonstration.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion. I said my piece, and I stand on it.

You irrational name-callers may continue without me.