one set of definitions would be good

[happythoughts 0]

If a white person gives speeches about racial intolerance, and using racial "hate speech",
they are called a "white supremacist".
People who regularly listen to that person are referred to
as "supporters". Regardless of later rationalizations, they are called supporters.
A site, or organization, allowing him a venue
for such meetings/speeches are supporters.
If you regularly attend meetings where a consistent content is preached, then you agree with the content.

The Blind Sheikh

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He issued a fatwa in America that declared lawful the robbing of banks and killing of Jews in America. His sermons condemned Americans as the "descendants of apes and pigs who have been feeding from the dining tables of the Zionists, Communists, and colonialists".[6] He called on Muslims to assail the West, "cut the transportation of their countries, tear it apart, destroy their economy, burn their companies, eliminate their interests, sink their ships, shoot down their planes, kill them on the sea, air, or land".[7]

Preaching at three mosques in the New York City area, Abdel-Rahman was soon surrounded by a core group of devoted followers that included persons who became responsible for the World Trade Center 1993 bombings.

Afterwards, what did the people attending those three mosques say?

The Dar al-Hijrah mosque was well known for hate speech against the US. The 9-11 hijackers and the Ft Hood assassin both went there. Pretty much sounds
like a terrorist cell in the US.

The most reasonable and important question.
When people preach violence against the US at mosques today, what is the response of those in attendance ?

[sundevil777 102]

It seems that if a person of the muslim faith is a "supporter" as you describe (I agree with your description/definition), but they don't actually take part in any actions/violence, then they are considered a "moderate".

Really pathetic, eh?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[happythoughts 0]

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It seems that if a person of the muslim faith is a "supporter" as you describe (I agree with your description/definition), but they don't actually take part in any actions/violence, then they are considered a "moderate".

Really pathetic, eh?

There have been several failed terrorist attempts.
JFK fuel tanks and the Fort Dix attack come to mind.

Eventually, something may succeed again.
The moderates can say, "Sure, we heard and didn't take action to save lives, but we are your friends."
My friends don't do that.

[Andy9o8 2]

[opens door]

Ah. Another Muslim-bashing thread. How bold! How creative!
Yawn.

[closes door]

[muff528 3]

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It seems that if a person of the muslim faith any nation, confederation, tribe, faction, group, common religion, or creed or other common bond is a "supporter" as you describe (I agree with your description/definition), but they don't actually take part in any actions/violence, then they are considered a "moderate" "civilian" and are considered to be immune from intentional (or even accidental!) targeting during a war, no matter how their "support" is manifested. .........(for example: propagandizing, "leaking" of military "secrets", providing shelter, aid and comfort, infiltration, espionage or other covert or overt activities in "support " of his "side".)

[sundevil777 102]

History shows that civilian populations are not immune from the violence of war. Why should it be without civilian deaths now? Would that actually make war less terrible? I'm not convinced that such efforts are actually better. Perhaps wars get stretched out, neither side feels nearly as much pressure to surrender.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[muff528 3]

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History shows that civilian populations are not immune from the violence of war. Why should it be without civilian deaths now? Would that actually make war less terrible? I'm not convinced that such efforts are actually better. Perhaps wars get stretched out, neither side feels nearly as much pressure to surrender.

Yep! ...not to mention that "civilians" have an interest in the outcome of any conflict involving their special group and that they (collectively), in some cases, hire" combatants to fight the actual battles although many (most?) are motivated to fight for ideological or existential reasons (i.e. "God and Country" or threat of genocide or loss of "habitat" or expansionism/conquest.)

[happythoughts 0]

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[opens door]

Ah. Another Muslim-bashing thread. How bold! How creative!
Yawn.

[closes door]

Another bold attempt to avoid discussion of a topic in the news.

If you live in the US and someone is saying to kill Americans, you either identify that person or you are on their side. Identifying murderers, or people who plot murder, is considered to be a normal expectation in the US, perhaps not where you live.

In just the area of the WTC, there were 3 mosques that
listened to the rhetoric of someone saying just that.
People who attended those mosques should have repudiated
his statements and prohibited him from speaking there. Otherwise, they are his supporters.

Right now, there are US mosques where US citizens are being recruited to fight Americans overseas. Those recruiters are known.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Another bold attempt to avoid discussion of a topic in the news.

No, just making a point, to wit: How many goddamn Muslim-bashing threads do we need? They just repeat the same shit over & over & over & over. Can't we just have one master thread, like the DB Cooper thread, and be done with it?

Ergo: yawn.

[happythoughts 0]

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Another bold attempt to avoid discussion of a topic in the news.

No, just making a point, to wit: How many goddamn Muslim-bashing threads do we need? They just repeat the same shit over & over & over & over. Can't we just have one master thread, like the DB Cooper thread, and be done with it?

Ergo: yawn.

I'm talking about the core issue, that is why.
Trying to address the solution to the problem.

It does dovetail into other conversations in a fashion
because there are two totally different perspectives.

Non-Muslims - "the mosques are centers for terrorists."
Muslims - "the mosques are centers for peace."

From a non-Muslim perspective, I am reading about a Hamburg mosque that was closed this month.
I am reading about kids from Minneapolis who died in Somalia, recruited at their mosque. The Ft Hood shooter went to a mosque known for its anti-American activity.
Known.

Until Muslims actively repudiate these terrorist recruiters,
non-Muslims will see mosques as that.
That is the solution to all these anti-mosque building threads.
Muslims need to take leadership in fighting terrorism.
They have an interest, it is their children dying in Somalia.

[remibond 0]

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Non-Muslims - "the mosques are centers for terrorists."
Muslims - "the mosques are centers for peace."

So are you saying that you believe all mosques to be centres of terrorism?

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Until Muslims actively repudiate these terrorist recruiters

I think you'll find most of them do.

[wmw999 2,588]

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I think you'll find most of them do

I'm sorry, but every-single-Muslim-in-the-world has to repudiate it, to me, personally.

Then, maybe, I'll believe them. But, ya know -- they might be lying

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[happythoughts 0]

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Non-Muslims - "the mosques are centers for terrorists."
Muslims - "the mosques are centers for peace."

So are you saying that you believe all mosques to be centres of terrorism?

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Until Muslims actively repudiate these terrorist recruiters

I think you'll find most of them do.

I was speaking of the perception that events create
and how to make actual change.

Read original post -
"Preaching at three mosques in the New York City area, Abdel-Rahman was soon surrounded by a core group of devoted followers that included persons who became responsible for the World Trade Center 1993 bombings."

What I am saying is this... when a speaker can move from mosque to mosque and openly advocate killing Americans, then that creates perceptions among non-Muslims. These were not clandestine meetings.

Since he openly spoke at multiple mosques, then his view must be accepted/approved at multiple mosques in NYC.
Otherwise, he would be told not to come and speak of murder at a place of worship.

I do not believe that every single mosque supports terrorism. There are no absolutes.

I just think that three known supporting venues in a local area is enough to be significant. Non-muslims will certainly wonder about the rest.

The statement that "most do" doesn't seem accurate
as long as the events widespread and constantly
appearing in the media. There is a wide difference
between saying you are against terrorist speakers and
telling them they are not welcome at your mosque.
To actually take a stand against violence will require action, not a soundbite.

"All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."

Otherwise, all that non-Muslims will think is that there is a supported conspiracy. The talk will be disregarded as political posturing.

Ft Hood
Ft Dix
WTC (repeat)
JFK fuel tanks
Americans going to Somalia and active ME war zones.

[turtlespeed 226]

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Another bold attempt to avoid discussion of a topic in the news.

No, just making a point, to wit: How many goddamn Muslim-bashing threads do we need? They just repeat the same shit over & over & over & over. Can't we just have one master thread, like the DB Cooper thread, and be done with it?

Ergo: yawn.

Sounds like he wouldn't be the whistle blower does it Happythoughts?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun