Bolas 5
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Shotgun 1
QuoteAll it takes is the simple "How would I feel if this was done to me?" test.
Yep, quite simple. That's why I go around flogging people all the time.
ShayneH 0
QuoteAtheists are fighting a loosing battle. You have nothing to offer. Which is the pillar of your holy manifesto "from nothing to nothing". Our species can not live with that kind of a void, no matter how enlightened you claim it to be. We need to know what is right and wrong. Something or someone will always fill that void.
Atheists have nothing to offer?? Don't you mean religious folk have nothing to offer (ie tangible empirical scientific evidence, not theory)?
QuoteWe need to know what is right and wrong.
When I was younger, my mother told me to stop picking my nose, or the booger monster would come take me away. When I would misbehave, she told me that Santa wouldn't bring me presents if I was bad. If I didn't clean my room, the Easter bunny wouldn't bring me eggs to find. Starting to catch my drift? Sounds pretty familiar, huh? If you don't worship this intangible being and tithe 15% of your life earnings to the church, you're going to hell. Hmmm....
So with absolutely no evidence to back up this all-mighty being, you still claim his existence. Do you say the same for Santa and the Easter bunny?
Bolas 5
QuoteQuoteAll it takes is the simple "How would I feel if this was done to me?" test.
Yep, quite simple. That's why I go around flogging people all the time.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
Remster 30
QuoteQuoteAll it takes is the simple "How would I feel if this was done to me?" test.
Yep, quite simple. That's why I go around flogging people all the time.
Infidel....
Remster
turtlespeed 226
QuoteQuoteQuoteAll it takes is the simple "How would I feel if this was done to me?" test.
Yep, quite simple. That's why I go around flogging people all the time.
Infidel....
Pot!
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
billvon 3,111
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>Atheists are fighting a loosing battle.
But apparently are winning overall. Here in the US, the "no religion" segment is the only segment growing in piolls.
No religion 1990: 8.2%
No religion 2001: 14.1%
No religion 2008: 15%
http://livinginliminality.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/aris_report_2008.pdf
> Our species can not live with that kind of a void, no matter how
>enlightened you claim it to be.
Agreed. But not everyone needs to fill that void with religion. For others, simple compassion, love, family, altruism etc fill that void.
But apparently are winning overall. Here in the US, the "no religion" segment is the only segment growing in piolls.
No religion 1990: 8.2%
No religion 2001: 14.1%
No religion 2008: 15%
http://livinginliminality.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/aris_report_2008.pdf
> Our species can not live with that kind of a void, no matter how
>enlightened you claim it to be.
Agreed. But not everyone needs to fill that void with religion. For others, simple compassion, love, family, altruism etc fill that void.
quade 4
QuoteNo religion 1990: 82.%
No religion 2001: 14.1%
No religion 2008: 15%
Somehow I doubt that 1990 number. Is there a misplaced decimal?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
beowulf 1
Quote
Most of anything that is recorded from that era is mythology by your definition.
By your reasoning, wether it is carved in stone, or written on paper, or painted on walls, quoting the writings offers no support one way or the other.
Right. How it's written doesn't matter. If there isn't any evidence to back it up then it's hard to take it very seriously.
beowulf 1
Quote
This is nothing but a mythology. There isn't any evidence to support any of this. Quoting the bible does nothing to support your beliefs.
Atheists are fighting a loosing battle. You have nothing to offer. Which is the pillar of your holy manifesto "from nothing to nothing". Our species can not live with that kind of a void, no matter how enlightened you claim it to be. We need to know what is right and wrong. Something or someone will always fill that void.
...
Atheism isn't about offering anything. It's disbelief in the superstitious nonsense that religion sells as truth. Atheism is about being skeptical of anything that doesn't make sense. Deitys and religion are full of shit and only offer empty promises.
billvon 3,111
>Somehow I doubt that 1990 number. Is there a misplaced decimal?
Fixed.
Fixed.
maadmax 0
When I was younger, my mother told me to stop picking my nose, or the booger monster would come take me away. When I would misbehave, she told me that Santa wouldn't bring me presents if I was bad. If I didn't clean my room, the Easter bunny wouldn't bring me eggs to find. Starting to catch my drift? Sounds pretty familiar, huh? If you don't worship this intangible being and tithe 15% of your life earnings to the church, you're going to hell. Hmmm....
So with absolutely no evidence to back up this all-mighty being, you still claim his existence. Do you say the same for Santa and the Easter bunny?
So with absolutely no evidence to back up this all-mighty being, you still claim his existence. Do you say the same for Santa and the Easter bunny?
Yes I am very aware of the arguments rejecting spiritual reality because of some confused understanding of myths, fables , fairytales, and religion. If there is any hope that we can ever narrow this discussion down to the same topic you will have to possess the ability to look within yourself and recognize your spirit. If that is possible, you will soon realize that you have spiritual needs. If that were to ever happen, we could then discuss ways of fulfilling those needs. For those who understand the message of the Bible, its validation comes from spiritual fulfillment when everything else has failed.
...
quade 4
QuoteFor those who understand the message of the Bible, its validation comes from spiritual fulfillment when everything else has failed.
So, you're saying religion is for losers?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
maadmax 0
Quote>Atheists are fighting a loosing battle.
But apparently are winning overall. Here in the US, the "no religion" segment is the only segment growing in piolls.
No religion 1990: 8.2%
No religion 2001: 14.1%
No religion 2008: 15%
http://livinginliminality.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/aris_report_2008.pdfQuote
I am sure that is true for now. But I get the feeling we are in a period of transition. In some/most European countries it appears that the "no religion" crowd is dying off and a new group of people are quietly emerging. The next 50-75 years should be interesting. Some speculate the US is not far behind.
...
maadmax 0
QuoteQuoteFor those who understand the message of the Bible, its validation comes from spiritual fulfillment when everything else has failed.
So, you're saying religion is for losers?
That is not my intent. Any more than country clubs, or the democratic party is for losers. I am saying, it is not for me.
QuoteFor those who understand the message of the Bible
Ok, so which message exactly? The one that says I should kill my children if they misbehave? Or the one that tells me the appropriatE way to beat my slaves?
I know where you're coming from because I was pretty much indoctrinated at a young age and believed the same nonsense. I think one of the reasons it took me so long to realize just how ridiculous the idea of a omnipotent magical sky daddy is, was because of the built in guilt for questioning it. Everytime I would start to use reason and logic to evaluate, the voice of guilt would quickly cause me to stop in my tracks and not finish the thought process.
Finally one day I said fuck it and realized that if my beliefs were in fact true, than that's where reason and logic would lead me.
It took about 3 minutes to consciously drop the ridiculous beliefs after actually thinking it through.
Have you thought it through, or is that guilt stopping you in your tracks the second you even think about investigating the possibility that your beliefs may not have any validity.
Have you read any of the four horsemens material (dawkins, hitchens, dennet and Harris? Have you watched zeitgeist or religulous?
Start with the god delusion from dawkins if you haven't and chances are you'll be questioning your beliefs and on the pathway to freeing your mind.
The natural universe is so much more amazing that the way it's depicted in religious fairytales.
billvon 3,111
>I am sure that is true for now. But I get the feeling we are in a period of
>transition. In some/most European countries it appears that the "no
>religion" crowd is dying off and a new group of people are quietly
>emerging.
Hmm, let's see:
UK: 1982 3% atheists, 2006 6% atheists.
The rest of Europe is WAY higher:
Denmark 23% atheists
France 33% atheists
Czech Republic 30% atheists
So I don't see where religion is gaining a foothold there. The number of Muslims in Europe has indeed increase dramatically, by a factor of 2 between between 1989 and 1998. But that was a small percentage to begin with. Christianity seems to be on the decline there:
==================
Scholars Find Decline of Christianity in the West
“one of the transforming moments in the history of religion worldwide”
By Vivian S. Park|vivian@christianpost.com
Recently, many scholars around the world are noticing how the trend of Christianity is losing its light in the West but rising as the new light in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.
According to Ed Vitagliano, news editor for AFA Journal, a monthly publication of the American Family Association, noted how Christianity is waning in the West because of the “advancing assault of secularism and New Age spirituality.” However at the same time he explained of a developing phenomenon that Christianity is growing in the other parts of the world so called “Global South” – Africa, Latin America and Asia and in the next 50 years he assumed those regions will become the new “spiritual home of faith.”
Calling it a pessimistic view, Philip Jenkins, professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University, discussed in his book, ‘The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity,' that for over a century, the decline of religion has become a common Western thought.
=====================
So if anything it looks like it's growing in the third world, and declining in Europe and the US. This may be because atheism is very closely linked to levels of education - higher levels of education typically reflect higher percentages of atheism.
====================
Studies comparing religious belief and educational attainment
In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that "Literally-oriented religious Believers did not differ significantly from Mythologically-oriented Believers on measures of intelligence, authoritarianism, or racial prejudice. Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics." He used SAT's as a measure of intelligence for this study.[10]
In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious disbelief and higher educational attainment. [11]
A weak negative correlation between education and Christian fundamentalism was found by Burton et al. (1989), a small study comparing the religious beliefs and educational achievements of white, Protestant residents of Delaware County, Indiana. Contrary to the researchers' expectations, fundamentalist converts were not less educated people.
================
>transition. In some/most European countries it appears that the "no
>religion" crowd is dying off and a new group of people are quietly
>emerging.
Hmm, let's see:
UK: 1982 3% atheists, 2006 6% atheists.
The rest of Europe is WAY higher:
Denmark 23% atheists
France 33% atheists
Czech Republic 30% atheists
So I don't see where religion is gaining a foothold there. The number of Muslims in Europe has indeed increase dramatically, by a factor of 2 between between 1989 and 1998. But that was a small percentage to begin with. Christianity seems to be on the decline there:
==================
Scholars Find Decline of Christianity in the West
“one of the transforming moments in the history of religion worldwide”
By Vivian S. Park|vivian@christianpost.com
Recently, many scholars around the world are noticing how the trend of Christianity is losing its light in the West but rising as the new light in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.
According to Ed Vitagliano, news editor for AFA Journal, a monthly publication of the American Family Association, noted how Christianity is waning in the West because of the “advancing assault of secularism and New Age spirituality.” However at the same time he explained of a developing phenomenon that Christianity is growing in the other parts of the world so called “Global South” – Africa, Latin America and Asia and in the next 50 years he assumed those regions will become the new “spiritual home of faith.”
Calling it a pessimistic view, Philip Jenkins, professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University, discussed in his book, ‘The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity,' that for over a century, the decline of religion has become a common Western thought.
=====================
So if anything it looks like it's growing in the third world, and declining in Europe and the US. This may be because atheism is very closely linked to levels of education - higher levels of education typically reflect higher percentages of atheism.
====================
Studies comparing religious belief and educational attainment
In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that "Literally-oriented religious Believers did not differ significantly from Mythologically-oriented Believers on measures of intelligence, authoritarianism, or racial prejudice. Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics." He used SAT's as a measure of intelligence for this study.[10]
In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious disbelief and higher educational attainment. [11]
A weak negative correlation between education and Christian fundamentalism was found by Burton et al. (1989), a small study comparing the religious beliefs and educational achievements of white, Protestant residents of Delaware County, Indiana. Contrary to the researchers' expectations, fundamentalist converts were not less educated people.
================
maadmax 0
"For those who understand the message of the Bible"
--Ok, so which message exactly?
For starters "Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free" & " Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life." (... and much much more :)
--Ok, so which message exactly?
For starters "Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free" & " Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life." (... and much much more :)
--Everytime I would start to use reason and logic to evaluate, the voice of guilt would quickly cause me to stop in my tracks and not finish the thought process.
Welcome to the world of religion. In the light of Truth there is no guilt, and all things are up for questioning.
--Finally one day I said fuck it and realized that if my beliefs were in fact true, than that's where reason and logic would lead me.
Good for you, I am sure it was high time you did.
--Have you thought it through, or is that guilt stopping you in your tracks the second you even think about investigating the possibility that your beliefs may not have any validity.
All the time, I read everything I can get my hands on. Dawkins makes good points about religion but is totally blind to true spiritual wisdom. I still enjoy trying to follow their logic until it fizzels out. With guarded reservations, I usually agree with most of what they say about religion, up until their conclusions about spirituality of course.
--The natural universe is so much more amazing that the way it's depicted in religious fairytales.
Absolutely, what do you know we agree on something. And spirituality is much fuller and richer than any atheist can possibly imagine.
...
Religion is simply an activity that occupies time until you die, giving the religious individual something to do and a sense of purpose in the meantime.
But this is not a bad thing. If religious people are happy, then by all means practice your religion. If your religion makes you miserable, then find something else that works for you.
Skydiving is the same thing for me. Just something fun to do that fills a void in my life and gives me purpose.
That being said, keep this in mind all you atheist skydivers who have ever had a whuffo question your decision to skydive as irrational, stupid, crazy, or whatever. No matter how you explain it, that whuffo isn't going to get it until they jump. The same goes for religious types trying to explain it the the atheist.
Even when a whuffo makes a tandem, they still may not like it and call you crazy, just as you may try religion and not like it.
Just because religion may seem irrational and you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't valuable for those that take to it.
If you question anothers religion, you're no more understanding than the ignorant whuffo.
But for all you bible thumpers that put stuff on my car, preach to me unsolicited, knock on my door, etc...
Go fuck yourselves because your god is annoying the shit out of me!
But this is not a bad thing. If religious people are happy, then by all means practice your religion. If your religion makes you miserable, then find something else that works for you.
Skydiving is the same thing for me. Just something fun to do that fills a void in my life and gives me purpose.
That being said, keep this in mind all you atheist skydivers who have ever had a whuffo question your decision to skydive as irrational, stupid, crazy, or whatever. No matter how you explain it, that whuffo isn't going to get it until they jump. The same goes for religious types trying to explain it the the atheist.
Even when a whuffo makes a tandem, they still may not like it and call you crazy, just as you may try religion and not like it.
Just because religion may seem irrational and you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't valuable for those that take to it.
If you question anothers religion, you're no more understanding than the ignorant whuffo.
But for all you bible thumpers that put stuff on my car, preach to me unsolicited, knock on my door, etc...
Go fuck yourselves because your god is annoying the shit out of me!
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
Bolas 5
I've never heard of nations going to war over skydiving.
Never heard of skydivers torturing and killing whuffos becuase they did not "believe."
Never heard of people who practice different disciplines in skydiving killing each other over their discipline.
Edit: Additionally: Skydiving encourage people to go out and seek additional knowledge from a variety of sources.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
QuoteI've never heard of nations going to war over skydiving.
Never heard of skydivers torturing and killing whuffos becuase they did not "believe."
Never heard of people who practice different disciplines in skydiving killing each other over their discipline.
Edit: Additionally: Skydiving encourage people to go out and seek additional knowledge from a variety of sources.
Bolas, I'm agnostic and of your thinking as well, but religion doesn't kill people. Bad people kill people. What I was refering to was athiests who claim that just because religion is irrational and make-believe, that it has no value. My sister's religious, has one biological child, one Ethiopian adopted child, and is leaving for Etheopia next summer to do missionary work.
While the teachings of her missionary work may be fairy tales, it makes her happy and she helps rather than hurts others. Who am I to say her beliefs are irrational?
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
billvon 3,111
>I've never heard of nations going to war over skydiving.
True. On the other hand, very few people are crippled or killed by making a bad decision while praying.
True. On the other hand, very few people are crippled or killed by making a bad decision while praying.
We already know that. All it takes is the simple "How would I feel if this was done to me?" test.
Far more effective than old books.
Edited to add: The reason for religion is too many people want to limt their responsibility in their own lives. Easier for them to live a shitty life thinking it's "God's plan" for them versus acknowledging that they have and have always had total control.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
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