How would I prove I'm leagle?

[Lucky... 0]

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Tell ya what-leave, renounce your citizenship. sneak back in, and we'll kick you back out just to be fair.

Nah, why do that when I can stay here and oppose and piss of conservatards.

[Lucky... 0]

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This isn't really about the Arizona law though I am concerned about the potential for abuse. I was wondering what document do I carry that could show me to be a leagle citizen. A driver's licence, a social security card, and a voter registration card are all the government papers that I have in my wallet. Would any of these suffice if I were stopped in AZ.?

And at the risk of having 2 subjects in a thread, what about a nation wide identity card? Again, there's a lot of potential for abuse of information generated by such a thing. We apparently can't seal our borders effectively so the illeagles must be found after they are here in the country.

I don't know what the right thing to do is but I do know that something needs to be done. I'm rally opposed to knee jerk reactions and the quick answers because of the "Rule of Unintended Consequenses". I believe that some thing that is subjected to some criticle thinking for a while will have less drastic unintended consequenses.

Have you ever needed more than a license? You're a citizen right?

I must show my ID, when:

1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm sure there are more instances, but the point is, that we citizens of the USA, ARE required to prove who we are nearly every day, multiple times a day.

Now, for anyone that is a green card holder, did you know that FEDERAL law requires you to have that documentation on you at all times, and that a law enforcement officer may ask for that documentation at any time for any reason, or no reason at all.

So, stop getting in a twist over the Arizona law, it actually has more protections for civil liberties than the federal precedent.

As if you read it. Tell me of the part where the justification to pull over a vehicle was reduced from PC to Reasonable suspicion for brown people, or does that fuck up your argument?

[Lucky... 0]

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1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm goign to be difficult, and say that in those cases, the reason that you can be asked for your license is because of the associated activity, and not just because you're present.

The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

Wendy P.

Please point out Wendy where you've been asked for your "papers" for just being around. I will also gather from your inference that you have not actually read the Arizona law, and can tell you that there is no such provision to allow such an event to happen.

If there is reasonable suspicion to believe a person is illegal, tehy can be questioned. RS is the lowest standard of proof.

You have no clue of the goings on in Nazizona, if you did you would reflect on the Chandler Roundup years ago where they went to the poor area of Chandler and rounded up all brown people, went downtown and sorted them out. They paid milliosn for that one, of course it was orchestrated by Police Chief Bobby Joe Harris, teh same redneck pig who excused Officer piggy Lovelace for each of his killings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_Roundup

[Lucky... 0]

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Please point out Wendy where you've been asked for your "papers" for just being around. I will also gather from your inference that you have not actually read the Arizona law, and can tell you that there is no such provision to allow such an event to happen.

You're ignoring the criticism of the law that I and several others posted in other threads a couple of weeks ago. And in a nutshell, that criticism is that the practical effect of that law will be that police will fabricate bullshit excuses (which are provided by law) as a pretext for being able to demand proof of citizenship from people of Hispanic appearance.

I'm not going to re-live that debate all over again, as I'm not all that into deja vu. You know the threads. It's in there.

Why would he address supported arguments that shut him down? Legally, it lowers the std of proof to teh lowest one; Reasonable Suspicion.

[Gawain 0]

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You have no clue of the goings on in Nazizona, if you did you would reflect on the Chandler Roundup years ago where they went to the poor area of Chandler and rounded up all brown people, went downtown and sorted them out. They paid milliosn for that one, of course it was orchestrated by Police Chief Bobby Joe Harris, teh same redneck pig who excused Officer piggy Lovelace for each of his killings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_Roundup

How close to the border are you? I may be in Northern California now, but I've lived in SoCal, and the I-5 corridor makes for a pretty quick affect.

I have a pretty good idea what's going on. Ranchers and Policemen are getting killed along the border.

What do you think is going on?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rushmc 23]

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Tell ya what-leave, renounce your citizenship. sneak back in, and we'll kick you back out just to be fair.

Nah, why do that when I can stay here and oppose and piss of conservatards.

Spoken as a true Amazon wanabe

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Niki1 1]

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>Agreed, but it's the gold standard for establishing "legal status" for all
>sorts of circumstances.

?? It's used as ID (to identify that the person is who they say they are) and as proof that they can legally drive a car. It is not proof of citizenship or legal resident status.

Here are what the State Department considers legal proof of citizenship or legal presence in the US:

Valid US passport
Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state
Consular Report of Birth Abroad or Certification of Birth
Naturalization Certificate
Certificate of Citizenship
Visa on foreign passport
Form I-94 verifying current status as “Refugee,” “Asylum Granted,” “Parolee,” or “Cuban-Haitian Entrant.”
Permanent Resident Card with photograph or alien Registration Receipt Card with photograph
Unexpired Temporary Resident Card
Unexpired Employment Authorization Card
Unexpired Reentry Permit
Unexpired Refugee Travel Document

>What's the problem here?

No problem at all, provided you produce one of them on demand. (Or are OK with being held until such can be produced.)

Thanks, Bill. This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I didn't want to rehash the AZ law. I just wanted to think about the generalities of proving I'm a citizen. I don't have any of the documents you sited. I did have a photostat of my birth certificat on me at one time and was asked why I would have that kind of document with me. By a law offecer. But that was a long time ago.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[mnealtx 0]

If your state requires verification of citizenship and identity (I had to show my birth certificate and Social Security card) in order to get a DL, you're fine.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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You have no clue of the goings on in Nazizona, if you did you would reflect on the Chandler Roundup years ago where they went to the poor area of Chandler and rounded up all brown people, went downtown and sorted them out. They paid milliosn for that one, of course it was orchestrated by Police Chief Bobby Joe Harris, teh same redneck pig who excused Officer piggy Lovelace for each of his killings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_Roundup

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How close to the border are you? I may be in Northern California now, but I've lived in SoCal, and the I-5 corridor makes for a pretty quick affect.

couple hundred miles, but that isn't the point. This isn't about you or me, it's about constitutional protections for Americans.

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I have a pretty good idea what's going on. Ranchers and Policemen are getting killed along the border.

Actually it was 1 rancher and a cop was shot; flesh wound. You act as tho they are daily. Cops get shot everywhere, all the time, therate there is < the average.

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What do you think is going on?

Typical racist hype. It's agenda that conservatives have latched onto and they're running it intot he ground, as with most things they endeavor.

No problem or comment on the Chandler Roundup?

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[normiss 868]

Current requirements in FL to obtain a driver license INCLUDING RENEWAL:

After new documentation requirements took effect at the beginning of the year for Florida residents wishing to obtain a driver license or identification card, the state's Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles has issued more than 1.3 million Real ID compliant driver's licenses so far this year.
Those wishing to obtain a new license, legally change their name prior to their renewal date, or immediately replace a lost or stolen license or ID card are required to visit a driver licenses office and show the following:
1) Identification – A certified U.S. birth certificate (hospital birth certificates are not accepted); a valid U.S. passport; a consular Report of Birth Abroad; a certificate of Naturalization (Form N-550 or N-570); or a certificate of Citizenship (Form N-560 or N-561). 2) Social Security Number – Card, W-2 form, paycheck or any 1099 form.
3) Residential Address – Two (2) items mailed to you that contain your address. Acceptable is a mortgage statement, voter ID card, a utility bill or a car insurance policy.
Anyone who has changed their name must bring marriage certificates, court orders or divorce decrees to connect the name on the primary identification to the name of the customer and the name in which the license or ID card will be issued. The complete list of acceptable documents is available online at www.GatherGoGet.com.
Immigrants and non-immigrants can secure a complete list of documents to bring to one of our offices by visiting www.GatherGoGet.com, or www.ReunaVengaObtenga.com in Spanish, or www.rasanblealepran.com in Creole.


Given the number of people utilizing electronic billing....there are massive issues. Driver license numbers are down over 400,000 people this year SO FAR.

Why isn't FL being sued??????



I don't receive any utility billing - all electronic.
I have an expired passport.
My vehicle loans are electronic billing.
I do have a valid social security card.
I have a signed lease (in a pdf though :-D)
Auto(s) and motorcycle insurance is electronic.

The electronic billing items I'm pretty sure I can print out sufficiently acceptable documentation....but of course the media is leading us to think otherwise.
Add to that the fees - $48 renewal, $6.25 service fee, $7.00 for any additional endorsements (motorcycle), and $130 administrative fee.

Wonder how many people are driving illegally and/or not renewing????

Surely this program will keep an illegal alien from being illegal.
It's common knowledge you NEED a driver license when being illegal.



I have had the same damn license here for YEARS.

[normiss 868]

I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

[mnealtx 0]

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I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

Mine was good enough for the military, too - another good thing that forgers have fucked up, eh?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Bolas 5]

Ya'll just got LeBron and don't pay state income tax.

Quityerbitchin!!!

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[normiss 868]

LeWho????
or more accurately LeWho Fucking Cares????

[Amazon 7]

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I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

So you cant run for president huh

[Amazon 7]

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I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

Mine was good enough for the military, too - another good thing that forgers have fucked up, eh?

I think you guys should post it online so we can make sure you are really americans .. make sure its not really M Hussein Neal

[mnealtx 0]

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I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

Mine was good enough for the military, too - another good thing that forgers have fucked up, eh?

I think you guys should post it online so we can make sure you are really americans .. make sure its not really M Hussein Neal

You can see it when I run for President - along with my grades and papers, unlike Dear Leader.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

Mine was good enough for the military, too - another good thing that forgers have fucked up, eh?

I think you guys should post it online so we can make sure you are really americans .. make sure its not really M Hussein Neal

You can see it when I run for President - along with my grades and papers, unlike Dear Leader.

Not buyin it....

[mnealtx 0]

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I just realized one other thing....
"Hospital birth certificates are not accepted".

I was born in 1962, the hospital birth certificate is all I've ever had.
Oddly enough it was sufficient to enlist in the Navy.

Mine was good enough for the military, too - another good thing that forgers have fucked up, eh?

I think you guys should post it online so we can make sure you are really americans .. make sure its not really M Hussein Neal

You can see it when I run for President - along with my grades and papers, unlike Dear Leader.

Not buyin it....

"I won"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

Not even close

[Shotgun 1]

As far as AZ is concerned, I think this might answer your question:

http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/identification-requirements

[Andy9o8 2]

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As far as AZ is concerned, I think this might answer your question:

http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/identification-requirements

Pffft. There's nothing in there that tells him how to prove he's not burning a flag while in a gay marriage and falsifying his carbon footprint.

[carmenc 0]

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As far as AZ is concerned, I think this might answer your question:

http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/identification-requirements

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3. What types of documents do I need to travel to and throughout Arizona?

The new law does not require U.S. citizens to carry identification. The new law merely requires aliens to carry registration documents that they are already required to carry under federal law. Under the new law, law enforcement officers may only inquire about immigration status if there is first a lawful stop, detention or arrest for a violation of some other law, and then the officer has reasonable suspicion that that you are an alien unlawfully present in the United States. If this occurs, the legislation provides that any one of the following forms of identification will be accepted by law enforcement as proof of legal immigration status in the United States:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
3. A valid Arizona non-operating identification license.
4. Any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification, provided the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance*.

The federal government, or a state or local law enforcement officer authorized by the federal government, can only make the final determination of a person’s immigration status. State or local law enforcement officers who are not authorized by the federal government cannot make these determinations.


* If you question the validity of your state’s form of identification, please refer to your state’s Motor Vehicle Division

So if you're a US citizen from a state that doesn't comply with AZ's driver's license requirement, and you look Hispanic, you are both NOT required to carry ID and ARE required to simultaneously.

[skyrider 0]

Once again, Every state in the union have a law requiring all adults have a ID card , either state issued ID , or a driver's lisense....

what is wrong wioth enforcing the laws on everybody?

[DanG 1]

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Once again, Every state in the union have a law requiring all adults have a ID card , either state issued ID , or a driver's lisense....

I don't think so.

- Dan G