muff528 3 #26 July 6, 2010 Quote [reply These posts are getting out of order and making my head hurt!What part of the 5th Amendment are you referring to? Quote I asked you to list the entire 5th ammendment. As an American and considering that cherished Bill of Rights you mentioned, is it actually other Citizens which keep you from embracing your Natural Right to Freedom or the present government. Could you cite for me the 5th Ammendment ? Blue Skies, DJ Sure! I can C&P like most anyone can: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Not sure what your point is or how this, explicitly, applies to the discussion. Point me in a direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #27 July 6, 2010 Quote nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Your wages or monies you have earned are "private property". Noodle all that out . You stated that the first ten (and I'm taking the Liberty to paraphrase) can't be cancelled by subsequent ammendments. So is the federal government via the income tax violating your Natural Right to Freedom? I'll be back in a couple of weeks to discuss this some more. In the mean time thanks for the discussion. Blues, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #28 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Your wages or monies you have earned are "private property". Noodle all that out . You stated that the first ten (and I'm taking the Liberty to paraphrase) can't be cancelled by subsequent ammendments. So is the federal government via the income tax violating your Natural Right to Freedom? I'll be back in a couple of weeks to discuss this some more. In the mean time thanks for the discussion. Blues, DJ In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population. Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. I would expect that different people would view different expenditures differently and may or may not agree with all spending. Taxes are bad when they are used for punishment or manipulation of any person or group of people or are used to gain political advantage or power...... or to pit one group of people against another. This will have a tendency to allow tyranny to take root unless it is recognized and denied by a vigilant and engaged population before it is too late to fix it at the ballot box. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #29 July 6, 2010 Quote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #30 July 6, 2010 >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #31 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ I always wonder how many "Libertarians" and anarchists would be able to stay alive for more than a few days in their wet dream world with no governments Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #32 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #33 July 6, 2010 Quote>Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of these government services cost. So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the government via income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #34 July 6, 2010 [reply I always wonder how many "Libertarians" and anarchists would be able to stay alive for more than a few days in their wet dream world with no governments Interesting! I don't think anyone has suggested an abolition of government. Where did you get that idea? I would rather think the discussion is more toward an unobtrusive government which respects the Rights and Freedoms of the Citizenry. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #35 July 6, 2010 [reply Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Quote I agree that by simply living it you are free. As to palavering about Freedom and Liberty, what do think they're yoedeling about?Blue Skies, DJ Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. Ketchup or mayonaise? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #36 July 6, 2010 There are no completely free people. Everyone has to sleep, everyone has to eat, everyone has to breathe, everyone has to deal with other people. Everyone has to travel to do some of these things, earn money to do some, and live where the air is breathable. If they don't want to deal with other people, they have to have the resources to subsistence farm. Without coming up with a system to allocate costs individually (do you really want to go there -- there are 300,000,000 Americans), some sort of formula is needed. Not everyone needs all services, so it's not completely fair. How to change the formula? Get involved, and get enough people to agree with you. We have public education now, we have roads, air traffic has some control -- none of these is in the Constitution, but pretty much everyone agrees they're all needed. So no, no one is completely free. We all explore the world that we have available, and it's different for each person. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #37 July 6, 2010 QuoteThere are no completely free people. Quote Oh? I beg to differ! Outlaws are Free and all Free Men are Outlaws. As a matter of fact each of the Founding Fathers was an Outlaw pissed off about the taxes they were subjected to. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #38 July 6, 2010 How did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #39 July 6, 2010 QuoteHow did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? I don't see work as a constraint to Freedom as long as it's by ones' choosing. Surley we can all agree that forced labor is slavery!!!! And if any government by threat of violence or incarceration requires you to forfeit the fruits of your labor, that too is slavery. Do you agree or do you not subscribe to the Fifth Ammendment to the Constitution? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #40 July 6, 2010 Not everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom? I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #41 July 6, 2010 >These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is >budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of >these government services cost. Agreed. But your percentage of the benefits _is_ hard to quantify. I could argue that since I bike to work, and would be just as happy with dirt trails as roads, I should not pay taxes going to highway construction. But I do because it's a service _available_ to me. >So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same >benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is >there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the >government via income tax? Yes, because many services are more easily administered if everyone is covered (i.e. the military.) There is no reasonable way to exclude someone from military protection here in the US no matter how much they pay. In some ways the fairest possible way to administer tax here in the US would be to send everyone in the US a bill for $24,000 a year. (Expenditures divided by taxpayers.) It would also be completely unworkable, since a soldier making 18K a year can't afford to pay $24K a year, and all our soldiers would quickly end up in prison. Therefore, some will always pay for far more than they are getting; some will pay far less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #42 July 6, 2010 >Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #43 July 6, 2010 QuoteNot everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom?Quote Obviously not if they choose to take that employment. Freedom means Freedom to choose. I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation.Quote "Just compensation" is the operative phrase in the Fifth Ammendment. How is the compensation "just" if one who pays no income tax recieves the same benefits as one who pays a million dollars in income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #44 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Obviously there are extreme opinions on both ends of that issue. The nuts and bolts of taxation and by what devices and rules taxes are collected and distributed are (or should be) left in the realm of the legislative (representative) arm of our government. I do completely disagree with manipulation (amendment) of the Constitution for things like taxation which can be addressed by laws. Any disagreements with our reps can then be hashed out on each election day. There will never be parity for the majority of individuals but ideally there will be for the society as a whole. Also, what can't be quantified is how some disparity in the distribution of taxes can keep desperation from causing wholesale uprisings by the lower economic echelon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #45 July 6, 2010 Quote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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billvon 3,120 #30 July 6, 2010 >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #31 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ I always wonder how many "Libertarians" and anarchists would be able to stay alive for more than a few days in their wet dream world with no governments Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #32 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #33 July 6, 2010 Quote>Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of these government services cost. So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the government via income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #34 July 6, 2010 [reply I always wonder how many "Libertarians" and anarchists would be able to stay alive for more than a few days in their wet dream world with no governments Interesting! I don't think anyone has suggested an abolition of government. Where did you get that idea? I would rather think the discussion is more toward an unobtrusive government which respects the Rights and Freedoms of the Citizenry. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #35 July 6, 2010 [reply Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Quote I agree that by simply living it you are free. As to palavering about Freedom and Liberty, what do think they're yoedeling about?Blue Skies, DJ Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. Ketchup or mayonaise? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #36 July 6, 2010 There are no completely free people. Everyone has to sleep, everyone has to eat, everyone has to breathe, everyone has to deal with other people. Everyone has to travel to do some of these things, earn money to do some, and live where the air is breathable. If they don't want to deal with other people, they have to have the resources to subsistence farm. Without coming up with a system to allocate costs individually (do you really want to go there -- there are 300,000,000 Americans), some sort of formula is needed. Not everyone needs all services, so it's not completely fair. How to change the formula? Get involved, and get enough people to agree with you. We have public education now, we have roads, air traffic has some control -- none of these is in the Constitution, but pretty much everyone agrees they're all needed. So no, no one is completely free. We all explore the world that we have available, and it's different for each person. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #37 July 6, 2010 QuoteThere are no completely free people. Quote Oh? I beg to differ! Outlaws are Free and all Free Men are Outlaws. As a matter of fact each of the Founding Fathers was an Outlaw pissed off about the taxes they were subjected to. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #38 July 6, 2010 How did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #39 July 6, 2010 QuoteHow did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? I don't see work as a constraint to Freedom as long as it's by ones' choosing. Surley we can all agree that forced labor is slavery!!!! And if any government by threat of violence or incarceration requires you to forfeit the fruits of your labor, that too is slavery. Do you agree or do you not subscribe to the Fifth Ammendment to the Constitution? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #40 July 6, 2010 Not everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom? I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #41 July 6, 2010 >These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is >budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of >these government services cost. Agreed. But your percentage of the benefits _is_ hard to quantify. I could argue that since I bike to work, and would be just as happy with dirt trails as roads, I should not pay taxes going to highway construction. But I do because it's a service _available_ to me. >So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same >benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is >there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the >government via income tax? Yes, because many services are more easily administered if everyone is covered (i.e. the military.) There is no reasonable way to exclude someone from military protection here in the US no matter how much they pay. In some ways the fairest possible way to administer tax here in the US would be to send everyone in the US a bill for $24,000 a year. (Expenditures divided by taxpayers.) It would also be completely unworkable, since a soldier making 18K a year can't afford to pay $24K a year, and all our soldiers would quickly end up in prison. Therefore, some will always pay for far more than they are getting; some will pay far less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #42 July 6, 2010 >Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #43 July 6, 2010 QuoteNot everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom?Quote Obviously not if they choose to take that employment. Freedom means Freedom to choose. I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation.Quote "Just compensation" is the operative phrase in the Fifth Ammendment. How is the compensation "just" if one who pays no income tax recieves the same benefits as one who pays a million dollars in income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #44 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Obviously there are extreme opinions on both ends of that issue. The nuts and bolts of taxation and by what devices and rules taxes are collected and distributed are (or should be) left in the realm of the legislative (representative) arm of our government. I do completely disagree with manipulation (amendment) of the Constitution for things like taxation which can be addressed by laws. Any disagreements with our reps can then be hashed out on each election day. There will never be parity for the majority of individuals but ideally there will be for the society as a whole. Also, what can't be quantified is how some disparity in the distribution of taxes can keep desperation from causing wholesale uprisings by the lower economic echelon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #45 July 6, 2010 Quote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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christelsabine 1 #32 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #33 July 6, 2010 Quote>Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of these government services cost. So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the government via income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #34 July 6, 2010 [reply I always wonder how many "Libertarians" and anarchists would be able to stay alive for more than a few days in their wet dream world with no governments Interesting! I don't think anyone has suggested an abolition of government. Where did you get that idea? I would rather think the discussion is more toward an unobtrusive government which respects the Rights and Freedoms of the Citizenry. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #35 July 6, 2010 [reply Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Quote I agree that by simply living it you are free. As to palavering about Freedom and Liberty, what do think they're yoedeling about?Blue Skies, DJ Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. Ketchup or mayonaise? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #36 July 6, 2010 There are no completely free people. Everyone has to sleep, everyone has to eat, everyone has to breathe, everyone has to deal with other people. Everyone has to travel to do some of these things, earn money to do some, and live where the air is breathable. If they don't want to deal with other people, they have to have the resources to subsistence farm. Without coming up with a system to allocate costs individually (do you really want to go there -- there are 300,000,000 Americans), some sort of formula is needed. Not everyone needs all services, so it's not completely fair. How to change the formula? Get involved, and get enough people to agree with you. We have public education now, we have roads, air traffic has some control -- none of these is in the Constitution, but pretty much everyone agrees they're all needed. So no, no one is completely free. We all explore the world that we have available, and it's different for each person. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #37 July 6, 2010 QuoteThere are no completely free people. Quote Oh? I beg to differ! Outlaws are Free and all Free Men are Outlaws. As a matter of fact each of the Founding Fathers was an Outlaw pissed off about the taxes they were subjected to. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #38 July 6, 2010 How did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #39 July 6, 2010 QuoteHow did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? I don't see work as a constraint to Freedom as long as it's by ones' choosing. Surley we can all agree that forced labor is slavery!!!! And if any government by threat of violence or incarceration requires you to forfeit the fruits of your labor, that too is slavery. Do you agree or do you not subscribe to the Fifth Ammendment to the Constitution? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #40 July 6, 2010 Not everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom? I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #41 July 6, 2010 >These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is >budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of >these government services cost. Agreed. But your percentage of the benefits _is_ hard to quantify. I could argue that since I bike to work, and would be just as happy with dirt trails as roads, I should not pay taxes going to highway construction. But I do because it's a service _available_ to me. >So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same >benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is >there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the >government via income tax? Yes, because many services are more easily administered if everyone is covered (i.e. the military.) There is no reasonable way to exclude someone from military protection here in the US no matter how much they pay. In some ways the fairest possible way to administer tax here in the US would be to send everyone in the US a bill for $24,000 a year. (Expenditures divided by taxpayers.) It would also be completely unworkable, since a soldier making 18K a year can't afford to pay $24K a year, and all our soldiers would quickly end up in prison. Therefore, some will always pay for far more than they are getting; some will pay far less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #42 July 6, 2010 >Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #43 July 6, 2010 QuoteNot everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom?Quote Obviously not if they choose to take that employment. Freedom means Freedom to choose. I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation.Quote "Just compensation" is the operative phrase in the Fifth Ammendment. How is the compensation "just" if one who pays no income tax recieves the same benefits as one who pays a million dollars in income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #44 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Obviously there are extreme opinions on both ends of that issue. The nuts and bolts of taxation and by what devices and rules taxes are collected and distributed are (or should be) left in the realm of the legislative (representative) arm of our government. I do completely disagree with manipulation (amendment) of the Constitution for things like taxation which can be addressed by laws. Any disagreements with our reps can then be hashed out on each election day. There will never be parity for the majority of individuals but ideally there will be for the society as a whole. Also, what can't be quantified is how some disparity in the distribution of taxes can keep desperation from causing wholesale uprisings by the lower economic echelon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #45 July 6, 2010 Quote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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wmw999 2,589 #38 July 6, 2010 How did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #39 July 6, 2010 QuoteHow did they get around the need to interact with others, to have enough money to eat, if not by constraining their freedom with work & laws? I don't see work as a constraint to Freedom as long as it's by ones' choosing. Surley we can all agree that forced labor is slavery!!!! And if any government by threat of violence or incarceration requires you to forfeit the fruits of your labor, that too is slavery. Do you agree or do you not subscribe to the Fifth Ammendment to the Constitution? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #40 July 6, 2010 Not everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom? I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #41 July 6, 2010 >These services require a dollar amount to provide. The amount is >budgeted and very easy to quantify. It is no mystery as to what each of >these government services cost. Agreed. But your percentage of the benefits _is_ hard to quantify. I could argue that since I bike to work, and would be just as happy with dirt trails as roads, I should not pay taxes going to highway construction. But I do because it's a service _available_ to me. >So again , if one who pays absolutley no income tax has the same >benefits of government services as one who pays $30,000.00 a year , is >there "just compensation" for the private property confiscated by the >government via income tax? Yes, because many services are more easily administered if everyone is covered (i.e. the military.) There is no reasonable way to exclude someone from military protection here in the US no matter how much they pay. In some ways the fairest possible way to administer tax here in the US would be to send everyone in the US a bill for $24,000 a year. (Expenditures divided by taxpayers.) It would also be completely unworkable, since a soldier making 18K a year can't afford to pay $24K a year, and all our soldiers would quickly end up in prison. Therefore, some will always pay for far more than they are getting; some will pay far less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #42 July 6, 2010 >Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #43 July 6, 2010 QuoteNot everyone has a job they enjoy. Does that impinge on their freedom?Quote Obviously not if they choose to take that employment. Freedom means Freedom to choose. I do subscribe to the fifth amendment. But I disagree that taxation is confiscation of private property without compensation.Quote "Just compensation" is the operative phrase in the Fifth Ammendment. How is the compensation "just" if one who pays no income tax recieves the same benefits as one who pays a million dollars in income tax? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #44 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Obviously there are extreme opinions on both ends of that issue. The nuts and bolts of taxation and by what devices and rules taxes are collected and distributed are (or should be) left in the realm of the legislative (representative) arm of our government. I do completely disagree with manipulation (amendment) of the Constitution for things like taxation which can be addressed by laws. Any disagreements with our reps can then be hashed out on each election day. There will never be parity for the majority of individuals but ideally there will be for the society as a whole. Also, what can't be quantified is how some disparity in the distribution of taxes can keep desperation from causing wholesale uprisings by the lower economic echelon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #45 July 6, 2010 Quote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing × Sign In Sign Up Forums Dropzones Classifieds Gear Indoor Articles Photos Videos Calendar Stolen Fatalities Subscriptions Leaderboard Activity Back Activity All Activity My Activity Streams Unread Content Content I Started
muff528 3 #44 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote In a nutshell: Taxes, in general, are necessary and good when used to provide for the common defense and to pay for services and projects agreed upon by the representatives of the population.Quote I agree that taxes are necessary to fund the government. I know that * income* taxes are a violation of the Rights spelled out in the fifth ammendment. Do you agree? Quote Of course, the just compensation would be the protection or services themselves. Now explain to me "just compensation". Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for every dollar confiscated by the government? And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Obviously there are extreme opinions on both ends of that issue. The nuts and bolts of taxation and by what devices and rules taxes are collected and distributed are (or should be) left in the realm of the legislative (representative) arm of our government. I do completely disagree with manipulation (amendment) of the Constitution for things like taxation which can be addressed by laws. Any disagreements with our reps can then be hashed out on each election day. There will never be parity for the majority of individuals but ideally there will be for the society as a whole. Also, what can't be quantified is how some disparity in the distribution of taxes can keep desperation from causing wholesale uprisings by the lower economic echelon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #45 July 6, 2010 Quote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
dj123 0 #45 July 6, 2010 Quote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
muff528 3 #46 July 6, 2010 Quote >Would not just compensation require the return of a dollars' value for >every dollar confiscated by the government? No, because a great many services (i.e. ATC keeping an airplane from falling on you, the military protecting some US base in Germany) are intangible and inherently hard to quantify. I'll be darned! .... I do occasionally agree with you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #47 July 6, 2010 >Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each >and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! And, ironically, the creators of the foundation of the laws we all live by. >Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we >allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our >labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! If this bothers you as much as it appears to, Kuwait does not have any income tax. One of the cool freedoms we have here is the freedom to leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #48 July 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote are you talking about French fries ? I'm talking about Freedom and Liberty my man. Those are the ideals the founding fathers hoped to aquire for all of us by escaping the yoke of the British Crown. Do you feel like you are a Free Man? Blue Skies, DJ Jeez. If any one is free on our planet earth, it's the Swiss. I know many of them. Never ever I heard any one palaver about *freedom* or *liberty* (my man?). They simply live it and are free. Vive la différence. Vive les Pommes Frites. hmmmm! ....... I wonder how free the Swiss (or Swedes, or Irish ..... or the US for that matter) would be today had the "Allies" failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #49 July 6, 2010 Quote[ And how is "just compensation " achieved when one who pays no taxes is entitled to the exact same protection and services as one who pays $30,000.00? Blue Skies, DJ Because we aspire to be a just and compassionate society. Quote Just is the operative word in the Fifth Ammendment. As to "compassionate" , by all means complete any and all of your philantropist works with your own money! The Fifth says that the government can't confiscate mine for those ends. Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
ChangoLanzao 0 #50 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuote>Outlaws are Free . . . Not for long. Quote LOL! What do you mean by that? For how long will an outlaw be Free? >all Free Men are Outlaws. Nope. If what they want to do is legal, then there is no issue with the law. LOL again!!! You have run out of argument! Fact is the Founding Fathers, those we respect and reveere were each and every one ,down to a man , Outlaws by choice! They put their personal fortune and life on the line to ensure their Liberty. The income tax is a direct violation of our fifth ammendment right. The Founding Fathers knew this even a century before it was enacted. Now here we are nearly a century after that law came into effect and we allow the government to make us into slaves. Confiscating the fruits of our labour by threat of violence or incarceration!! Blue Skies, DJ There is no government in Somalia. Why don't you go live there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
