What does college mean?

[rhaig 0]

allright. fine.

you were there (or your department was). I heard it from someone who was there (or said he was and was using it as a teaching example).

yes dear.

you're right

I'm sorry.

--
Rob

[Bolas 5]

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>An engineer definitely shouldn't worry about how something looks or alter
>their data to change that.

>But an accountant, whose purpose is to deal with money, shouldn't they
>be willing to at least try to take all factors into account that may effect
>money?

They should take all factors into account that fall within the scope of their work, as should engineers.

It is an accountant's job to accurately tabulate actual costs. That may include things like capital equipment costs, amortization, advertising costs etc. I have never seen an accounting analysis that includes things like "the cost of being mean to people" or "the goodwill profit of donations." That is generally decided on a much higher level. Same with engineering analyses.

Employee morale has nothing to do with nice or mean, it has to do with respect. If people feel they're being taken advantage of, they're likely to do it right back.

Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall numbers don't change.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

The years I spent working before going to college taught me how to assess a situation and fix the problem. The time spent in the classroom getting my degree taught me to find the root cause of the problem and change things so that it wouldn't happen again, as well as to prevent problems from happeng in the first place.

You don't have to have college for root cause analysis troubleshooting.

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Many "engineering disasters" have been blamed on the engineers who designed the structure when the real cause was somebody who felt they knew more than the engineer and changed something without consulting the engineer. Many, many lives have been lost because of those who learned all they needed to know without bothering with a formal education.

Two points:
1. Communication is key. If one is hired for their knowledge, feel free to get a second opinion or question them directly, but simply dismissing one's expertise is never good. At the same time. simply dismissing one's opinion without explanation is not good either.
2. Of the disasters listed, the majority were engineers being ignored by managers and accountants. Which had a "formal education."

Add some ego and it's easy to see how it happens.

Engineer: It has to be done like this.
Manager/Accountant: That's expensive, let's do it this way.
Engineer: No. It has to be done like this.
Manager/Accountant: No. That's expensive, let's do it this way.
Engineer: I'm an engineer!!! I'm right!!!
Manager/Accountant: I'm a Business Major. I can cut costs and have final budget say.

Humbleness is good for all.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

"You don't have to have college for root cause analysis troubleshooting."
You don't have to have college to perform an amputation either, but if i need one I'm going to a doctor who has been through med school.

"Of the disasters listed, the majority were engineers being ignored by managers and accountants. Which had a "formal education."
Really?? Which ones were those? The ones i referenced were caused by non-degreed persons thinking they knew more than the engineers who wrote the procedures they were supposed to follow and didn't.

Failing to make it through college does not mean college is not worth the time and effort. Quite the contrary. This thread has shown that college serves well to seperate those with the ability to learn from those who can't or won't. That in itself is reason enough for a lot of employers to hire college grads.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[heavydude 0]

Getting an ME degree was the smartest thing I ever did, even if the process itself sucked. I was working full-time as an Electronic, Mechanical and Software Technician......the day I recieved my BS in ME I got a new desk at work and my salary doubled ! The process itself is just a bunch of hurdles you pass to prove your worth, just like the military with the exclusive schools were you prove your worth, in College you prove you can handle it by completeing the process.

[billvon 3,080]

>Employee morale has nothing to do with nice or mean, it has to do with respect.

Agreed - and that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

>Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most
>decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall
>numbers don't change.

Companies should absolutely use accountants to make decisions. They should also use engineers, product designers, marketing people, HR people and planners. Not including accounting in business decisions is a good way to go out of business very quickly.

[Bolas 5]

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>Employee morale has nothing to do with nice or mean, it has to do with respect.

Agreed - and that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

>Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most
>decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall
>numbers don't change.

Companies should absolutely use accountants to make decisions. They should also use engineers, product designers, marketing people, HR people and planners. Not including accounting in business decisions is a good way to go out of business very quickly.

Bolded the key word from my original post you may have missed.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

"Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall numbers don't change. "

Name at least one Fortune 1000 company that follows that policy.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Bolas 5]

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"Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall numbers don't change. "

Name at least one Fortune 1000 company that follows that policy.

Any of them that thought outsourcing or offshoring was a cost effective idea.

Bank of America comes to mind as they spent millions to offshore and then millions to bring it all back.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,080]

>Any of them that thought outsourcing or offshoring was a cost effective
>idea.

That's because it IS a cost effective idea. Most successful companies involved in manufacturing now outsource some or all of their manufacturing to Asia.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Any of them that thought outsourcing or offshoring was a cost effective
>idea.

That's because it IS a cost effective idea. Most successful companies involved in manufacturing now outsource some or all of their manufacturing to Asia.

But it's not nearly as cost effective as they initially thought it would be. Now there's a bigger trend in relocating tech people to lower cost of living states. It still ignores the fact that there is less talent in Delaware than California, but it doesn't have the problems of marginal English speaking people in different time zones.

The closer the role comes to being a commodity, the easier it is to relocate. But management costs factor in.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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"Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall numbers don't change. "

Name at least one Fortune 1000 company that follows that policy.

Any of them that thought outsourcing or offshoring was a cost effective idea.

Bank of America comes to mind as they spent millions to offshore and then millions to bring it all back.

Those decisions were not made by accountants. They were made by CEO's, presidents, vice-presidents, board members, etc.
Accountants only give them numbers to go by. It is up to those in charge to decide what to do with those numbers.
Why don't you just admit that:
1. You couldn't handle college
2. You didn't know you were wrong when you thought you knew more than the profs.
3. You are bitter because of 1 & 2 and therefore are trying to persuade others that college is a waste of time.
I'm just wondering when you will take your ball and go home because we won't let you make up the rules.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Bolas 5]

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"Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall numbers don't change. "

Name at least one Fortune 1000 company that follows that policy.

Any of them that thought outsourcing or offshoring was a cost effective idea.

Bank of America comes to mind as they spent millions to offshore and then millions to bring it all back.

Those decisions were not made by accountants. They were made by CEO's, presidents, vice-presidents, board members, etc.
Accountants only give them numbers to go by. It is up to those in charge to decide what to do with those numbers.
Why don't you just admit that:
1. You couldn't handle college
2. You didn't know you were wrong when you thought you knew more than the profs.
3. You are bitter because of 1 & 2 and therefore are trying to persuade others that college is a waste of time.
I'm just wondering when you will take your ball and go home because we won't let you make up the rules.

Your talk of the ball is ironic, cuz that's definitely not what you're playing right now.

Never did I say anything about wanting to make up the rules. My only interest is pointing out flaws/holes in the current system so we as a sociaty can address them and make things more consistent for all so we can then make things better for all.

By ensuring equal treatment for all and respecting the thoughts/opinions of others, we can advance further as a society. Let peoples thoughts/opinions stand on their own, not just whom they're from. Sometimes, they may not be right but the opportunity can be taken to show them why they aren't right.

Sometimes really educated people think/say ignorant things, sometimes people with real world experience experience understand way more than those with only a degree. Regardless of their education/experience, their thoughts/opinions should be able to stand on their own.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

"Sometimes really educated people think/say ignorant things, sometimes people with real world experience experience understand way more than those with only a degree. Regardless of their education/experience, their thoughts/opinions should be able to stand on their own."

You are absolutely right.
So why does any of that give you cause to proclaim a college degree as useless? Why have you argued that those without a degree are better to hire than those with a degree?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhaig 0]

this may be a loop back to earlier in the thread, but having been the hiring manager in a few spots, a resume coming across my desk with a degree in-field, and 2 years experience will get much more attention than a resume with only 2 years eperience (and no degree). That being said... If it was a degree in-field, plus 10 years experience, vs 10 years experience with no degree, the degree isn't going to add much to the decision to interview or not.

--
Rob

[Rstanley0312 1]

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"Should companies only be using accountants to make all or most decisions? No. But many are and can't figure out why the overall numbers don't change. "

Name at least one Fortune 1000 company that follows that policy.

Any of them that thought outsourcing or offshoring was a cost effective idea.

Bank of America comes to mind as they spent millions to offshore and then millions to bring it all back.

Those decisions were not made by accountants. They were made by CEO's, presidents, vice-presidents, board members, etc.
Accountants only give them numbers to go by. It is up to those in charge to decide what to do with those numbers.
Why don't you just admit that:
1. You couldn't handle college
2. You didn't know you were wrong when you thought you knew more than the profs.
3. You are bitter because of 1 & 2 and therefore are trying to persuade others that college is a waste of time.
I'm just wondering when you will take your ball and go home because we won't let you make up the rules.

Your talk of the ball is ironic, cuz that's definitely not what you're playing right now.

Never did I say anything about wanting to make up the rules. My only interest is pointing out flaws/holes in the current system so we as a sociaty can address them and make things more consistent for all so we can then make things better for all.

By ensuring equal treatment for all and respecting the thoughts/opinions of others, we can advance further as a society. Let peoples thoughts/opinions stand on their own, not just whom they're from. Sometimes, they may not be right but the opportunity can be taken to show them why they aren't right.

Sometimes really educated people think/say ignorant things, sometimes people with real world experience experience understand way more than those with only a degree. Regardless of their education/experience, their thoughts/opinions should be able to stand on their own.

Well Bolas...... I have 2 college degrees and I will go ahead and say that they were a HUGE waste of money for the most part. I could make the money I have made most of my professional career w/out degrees. If I decide to get my masters then they may be worth it only bc I have to have them to get my MBA. For a doctor, engineer, or other specified fields then college is necessary but for 80% of the other degrees people go to college for....... I think its a waste. JMHO

I am not knocking anyone elses education or their degrees. I am just saying I know a lot of successful people out there with highschool diplomas. I stick with what my dad says......... "only two ways to make really good money in this world.... sales or ownn your own business" from my experience you do not need a degree to do either one of those.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Bolas 5]

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"Sometimes really educated people think/say ignorant things, sometimes people with real world experience experience understand way more than those with only a degree. Regardless of their education/experience, their thoughts/opinions should be able to stand on their own."

You are absolutely right.
So why does any of that give you cause to proclaim a college degree as useless? Why have you argued that those without a degree are better to hire than those with a degree?

Glad we agree on the first part.
I've never said they were useless. Overvalued, possibly.

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Just because someone gets a degree doesn't mean they are smart. All it means is they got the grades necessary to pass. That could be due to intelligence, but also could be cheating, a good bullshitter, etc.

As expensive as colleges have gotten, unless one has a way to pay for it besides going into massive debt, it just may not make economic sense for some careers anymore as well.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[mnealtx 0]

A snippet from the comments section of a blog article talking about discrepencies in unemployment:

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The problem is really two-fold: on the one hand, the failure of the public schools to provide an adequate education to the majority of students who attend them; and on the other hand, the rise in credentialism that pushes unqualified students to seek a four-year undergraduate degree as the passport to a "good job".

The former is undoubtedly due to the stranglehold of the iron triangle of teachers unions, education schools and the Democratic party upon the form and substance of public education, resulting in a lack of standards, a lack of accountability and a lack of performance. One unfortunate result of their monopoly has been the doctrine that "every child should go to college"--which is, of course, arrant nonsense. Not every person has the intelligence or aptitude to attend college. Not every person who does has the desire or inclination to do so. Yet we keep trying to shoehorn these people into a pedagogical model that does not fit them, because of the mistaken belief that "a college degree is the gateway to a good job".

Part of that belief comes from mirror imaging on the part of the educational elite: their idea of a "good job" is one the resembles their jobs; since they had to go to college to get their jobs, everybody has to go to college. But the greater responsibility rests with the business community. In response to the collapse of the public education system, in which a high school diploma is not worth the paper on which it is printed, and in which vocational training is neglected, businesses have taken to using a bachelor's degree as a screening mechanism, the assumption being someone who can stick it through four years of college has some degree of self-discipline and a minimal capacity to be trained. College is the new high school. Most of the jobs today requiring a bachelor's degree do not in any way call upon the knowledge or skills one ought to have acquired along with such a degree. Yet we send kids off to college, at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars (even for state schools) to pick up the magic sheepskin.

As colleges deal with the increasing number of marginal students entering their institutions, the quality of instruction and the content of the curriculum has become devalued (see the proliferation of courses ending in the word "studies"). Unless one goes into the hard sciences or a technical discipline (e.g., foreign languages), one can go through the entire four years of undergraduate education without taking a single rigorous class. Pretty soon, a BA will be worth as much as a high school diploma is today.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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this may be a loop back to earlier in the thread, but having been the hiring manager in a few spots, a resume coming across my desk with a degree in-field, and 2 years experience will get much more attention than a resume with only 2 years eperience (and no degree). That being said... If it was a degree in-field, plus 10 years experience, vs 10 years experience with no degree, the degree isn't going to add much to the decision to interview or not.

I would make you a bet if it were possible. I would bet that if both of us started the same business in the same building at the same time, and you hired non-degreed persons and I hired only degreed persons....I would make more money sooner than you, if you even managed to be competetive enough to stay solvent.
Ten years experience plus a degree vs ten years and no degree? All else being equal that one is a no-brainer. The degreed person gets my hire every time.
BTW, I have been interviewing and hiring people for over twenty years, both to work for me and to work for other companies.
Even if the job has nothing to do with the degree the potential employee has, it still tells me several things about that person. It tells me they are able to set and acheive a goal, they are able to understand and follow directions, they are able to LISTEN, and they are willing to sacrifice immediate and short term happiness and comfort in order to ultimately be ahead of the game further down the road. Anybody who willingly lives in near poverty, eating mac & cheese every other day (and saving the leftovers), and puts in 80% of the hours available in a day to study gets my respect. I've been there and done that.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhaig 0]

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Ten years experience plus a degree vs ten years and no degree? All else being equal that one is a no-brainer. The degreed person gets my hire every time.

all else being equal yes, but I didn't say that, I said the resume would get more attention. The experience and degree get you the interview, if you don't have the degree, but you have plenty of experience, I'll still see what you know.

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Even if the job has nothing to do with the degree the potential employee has, it still tells me several things about that person. It tells me they are able to set and acheive a goal, they are able to understand and follow directions, they are able to LISTEN, and they are willing to sacrifice immediate and short term happiness and comfort in order to ultimately be ahead of the game further down the road. Anybody who willingly lives in near poverty, eating mac & cheese every other day (and saving the leftovers), and puts in 80% of the hours available in a day to study gets my respect. I've been there and done that.

I'm with you there, but really to me, it's all about getting to the interview.

I was always told "your degree gets you your first job, your experience gets you your second job." Yes, the degree can play a part, but I think it is less important when there is a volume of work experience to draw from.

--
Rob

[mnealtx 0]

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I was always told "your degree gets you your first job, your experience gets you your second job."

Is that why the first question a BA asks after graduation is "Do you want fries with that?"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

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I was always told "your degree gets you your first job, your experience gets you your second job."

Is that why the first question a BA asks after graduation is "Do you want fries with that?"

Experience:

Liaise and interface with clientele employing need-targeted field logistics.

[mnealtx 0]

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I was always told "your degree gets you your first job, your experience gets you your second job."

Is that why the first question a BA asks after graduation is "Do you want fries with that?"

Experience:

Liaise and interface with clientele employing need-targeted field logistics.

*golf clap*

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BobMoore 0]

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Experience:

Liaise and interface with clientele employing need-targeted field logistics.

For those of you who have said they have experience hiring people, how do you react when you pick up a resume to read puffery and doubletalk like this? I would light a match and watch the pretty flames myself.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[Andy9o8 2]

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Experience:

Liaise and interface with clientele employing need-targeted field logistics.

For those of you who have said they have experience hiring people, how do you react when you pick up a resume to read puffery and doubletalk like this? I would light a match and watch the pretty flames myself.

You're right; but the flip-side is also true. The "responsibilities" descriptions in corporate job postings read like this all the time. The people who created the corporate culture of writing like this should be horsewhipped with a horsewhip.