McChrystal puts Obama in quandary

[vortexring 0]

This is fascinating: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/22/obama-general-stanley-mccrystal-afghanistan

The on-going senior military v's politician debacle continues...Is it just me or are coalition Generals' and Politicians' having a bit of a bitching contest on the go here?

What on earth could possibly be wrong?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

This is fascinating: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/22/obama-general-stanley-mccrystal-afghanistan

The on-going senior military v's politician debacle continues...Is it just me or are coalition Generals' and Politicians' having a bit of a bitching contest on the go here?

What on earth could possibly be wrong?

The presidency.

Oh wait . . . too late.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[airdvr 210]

I think it's funny that everyone is focusing on what to do and not what was said. Truth hurts.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I think it's funny that everyone is focusing on what to do and not what was said. Truth hurts.

It's because of what was said that makes the "what to do" so important.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[vortexring 0]

And they've sacked him! Whoops

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[quade 4]

Anybody got a copy of the UCMJ handy? I'd like to know what it has to say about contemptuous speech against superiors.

Hmmm;
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/ucmj/blart-88.htm

http://www.armytimes.com/community/ask_lawyer/military_askthelawyer_070827w/
http://tullylegal.com/article88.pdf
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20030619_falvy.html

I dunno man, seem like McChrystal clearly screwed his own pooch and it's not like there's anyway he could possibly have an excuse for not knowing this part of the UCMJ.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

Anything in there about a junior senator from IL bashing the Patreus lead surge?

"I'm paying very close attention," Obama said of his war council. "And I will be insisting on extraordinary performance moving forward."

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[futuredivot 0]

Yep, he crossed the line and had to go-doesn't invalidate his position, just his right to voice it.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[quade 4]

Quote

Anything in there about a junior senator from IL bashing the Patreus lead surge?

I can't see how it possibly could, but nice try at changing the topic. Bravo.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

Anything in there about a junior senator from IL bashing the Patreus lead surge?

I can't see how it possibly could, but nice try at changing the topic. Bravo.

I don't see it as changing the topic. Barry must now rely on the very General he criticized about the Iraq surge. I'd say that's a pretty good quandry.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 4]

Quote

Yep, he crossed the line and had to go-doesn't invalidate his position, just his right to voice it.

Ya know, there's probably a 1001 other ways he could have phrased things, but the fact remains he didn't and not only that he seemed to promote similar violations of people under his command.

That's just unprofessional.

People, even high ranking military officers, are allowed to disagree with the President. They're not, however, allowed to voice contempt or encourage it in their ranks. There's a pretty big difference between the two.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vortexring 0]

General McChrystal and his aides were wrong, hence the quandary for your President.

Already I see numerous well written articles springing up supporting and deriding McChrystal and also Obamas' decision.

What if Petraeus is critical of his political bosses publically? And the next General? And the next? What if someone actually pays a bit more attention to what they're critical of?

A dressing down for insubordination? Indeed. A forced resignation? No.

Perhaps Petraeus will rapidly succed in Afghanistan and Obamas' decision will be seen as a political master-stroke.

I certainly hope so, although I see it now as a frustrating step back to what was a positive and coherant strategy.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[quade 4]

Quote

A dressing down for insubordination? Indeed. A forced resignation? No.

Well, we're getting into semantics here, but if that's where you want to go, I'll do so gladly.

What McChristal did wasn't insubordination. As far as I know, McChrystal was doing everything he was told to do.

However, it was in clear violation of Article 88 of the UCMJ. Specifically. Very clearly in violation and there's simply no question about it.

Further, punishments for violation of Article 88 are completely wide open. As far as I can see, that's everything from a slap on the wrist, which you suggest, to, I dunno, maybe a public execution during a time of war? Certainly that would have been the case in ancient China and Japan or any one of a number of current day middle eastern countries, but we like to think of ourselves as being a bit more advanced than that.

"Forcing" a guy to have to swallow his pride and back away from the table? Seems pretty mild.

He certainly could have been subjected to a full Courts Martial, but to what end? A prison term?

I think resignation was appropriate and more than fair.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vortexring 0]

You're looking at this issue with tunnel vision, and with scant regard to the wider issues. At this level, it's too simplistic to make things so black and white.

It isn't so simple as you see it. Hence the quandary.
edit: What if someone actually pays a bit more attention to what they're critical of?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[quade 4]

Quote

You're looking at this issue with tunnel vision, and with scant regard to the wider issues. At this level, it's too simplistic to make things so black and white.

It isn't so simple as you see it. Hence the quandary.

Then educate me.

What wider issue? The fact that it's a slap down to those officers in the military that think they can publicly mouth off? That's not a wider issue, that's simply the way it's supposed to be.

You've seemed to indicate this is a potential issue now between Petraeus and Obama. So what? It should be immediately obvious to anyone in Petraeus' position how he has to procede. If he has half a brain and wants to keep his career intact, Petraeus will do what he's told and keep his mouth shut - exactly like he's supposed to. How is that a "wider" issue?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Definitions of quandary on the Web:

predicament: a situation from which extrication is difficult especially an unpleasant or trying one; "finds himself in a most awkward predicament"; "the woeful plight of homeless people"

dilemma: state of uncertainty or perplexity especially as requiring a choice between equally unfavorable options
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A state of not knowing what to decide; a state of difficulty or perplexity; a state of uncertainty, hesitation or puzzlement; a pickle; a predicament; A dilemma, a difficult decision or choice
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quandary

a condition of doubt or uncertainty as to what to do in a certain situation
www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Clerks

The wider issue? This isn't just about Barry and his generals. It's about the ability to lead the most powerful nation on this earth.

Why would McChrystal say those things? Is he stupid and doesn't know about the consequences? Never heard of Article 88? Doubtful.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 4]

Quote

Why would McChrystal say those things? Is he stupid and doesn't know about the consequences?

Not that I'm making excuses for him, but how about this . . . he was talking to a reporter from Rolling Stone and didn't take the interview seriously enough.

I seriously doubt he would have said those things to ABC, CBS, NBC or even Fox, but he saw a hippie stoner reporter from a rock-n-roll rag and didn't think twice about it.

It's funny too because I just said earlier today elsewhere that character is what you are in the dark. He didn't think anybody of any importance was watching and let his true self be heard. That same sort of mistake has cost quite a few people more than just their jobs over the years.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vortexring 0]

You're still blinkered through your reply - I've already alluded to the wider issue; let's see if you can think outside the point you debate.

You're not wrong in what you say, where we disagree is that it isn't such a simple case of sacking the man. Surely you must be capable of seeing that?

Do you really think he made the points he made without considering the ramifications?

You must understand that being a soldier doesn't just mean you should blindly do your duty without question; look at the Nazi's, look at Abu Ghraib. Whilst it's relatively out of context, the point I make is that would you, as a military commander, speak out against your political masters wrong-doings, or would you simply just shut your mouth and do as your told?

Hence my reasoning that you're looking at the whole issue with tunnel vision mate. Do you disagree with what he says? Would you have sacked Monty if he shot his mouth 5 days into Normandy when they hadn't broken through the beach-head?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[quade 4]

Quote

Do you disagree with what he says?

Yes, actually I do.

I think McChristal is a fine commander of men and knows quite a bit about effectively controlling an area, that said, I also think he was so close to the situation HE didn't see what was going on in the larger world context. Further, it's not ever his job to or make a comment about it. His job is to do what he's told to do. It's specifically NOT to second guess international policy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[futuredivot 0]

Quote

Quote

Do you disagree with what he says?

Yes, actually I do.

I think McChristal is a fine commander of men and knows quite a bit about effectively controlling an area, that said, I also think he was so close to the situation HE didn't see what was going on in the larger world context. Further, it's not ever his job to or make a comment about it. His job is to do what he's told to do. It's specifically NOT to second guess international policy.

Really not one to use one word when a hundred will do, are ya? What makes his opinions on the situation less valid or valuable than his CiC other than their relative positions in the chain of command?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[quade 4]

Quote

What makes his opinions on the situation less valid or valuable than his CiC other than their relative positions in the chain of command?

The most basic is that McChrystal is ONLY concerned with the military aspects in that specific theater while the President has other countries and political factions he needs to consider. While McChrystal may have some specific knowledge of a specific area, the President has to take into consideration how what the US military does affects a much larger area of responsibility.

In very small terms, it's the reason why the head chef gets to run the kitchen and not the sous chef; he's the guy that's actually in charge.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 3]

Quote

Would you have sacked Monty if he shot his mouth 5 days into Normandy when they hadn't broken through the beach-head?

Eisenhower disciplined Patton for shooting his mouth off by restricting his command activity more than once during the battle for the Europe. Patton was arguably the best senior land commander in the European Theater (IMO), and yet Eisenhower - also a life-long personal friend of Patton's - considered Patton to not be indispensable, compared to the potential damage to the strategic mission that Patton was doing with his intemperate mouth.

[futuredivot 0]

Quote

The most basic is that McChrystal is ONLY concerned .....

Did you guys discuss this over coffee one day or do you presume to be a mind reader?

Oh, and BTW-I noticed that you gave job descriptions for both but didn't really answer how Obama's history, training, and experience makes his OPINIONS more valid.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[quade 4]

Quote

Oh, and BTW-I noticed that you gave job descriptions for both but didn't really answer how Obama's history, training, and experience makes his OPINIONS more valid.

I thought I made it clear, but perhaps I need to say it with the caps locks key turned on so you can see the important thing.

His opinions are more valid, because HE'S THE PRESIDENT.

In case you missed it in the Constitution, THAT'S what makes his opinion the one that MUST be followed whether a general, you, me or Mickey Mouse says otherwise.

Yes, this even applied to GWB, which is why we get to blame him for the adventures in Iraq.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[futuredivot 0]

Quote

His opinions are more valid, because HE'S THE PRESIDENT

Addressed here

Quote

other than their relative positions in the chain of command?

Maybe I should have hit the caps lock so you could see it. So all you've pointed out is why they're given more weight-not why they are more valid.

Quote

Yes, this even applied to GWB, which is why we get to blame him for the adventures in Iraq.

So, have we left Iraq without anyone telling me, is Bush still president, or are you saying that Obama can start assuming responsibility?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour