UK: Preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

[RonD1120 62]

I like John MacArthur but he tends to make me wince.

Back in the early days of my walk with Christ, actually they are all early days, I used to balance MacArthur with Chuck Swindoll so that I would feel better about myself.

Someone once said, "The job of the preacher is to make the uncomfortable folks feel comfortable and the comfortable ones to feel uncomfortable."

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,118]

>By the new covenant in Christ, the actual Sabbath day is optional
>to the believer.

And as Jesus was pretty mum on the topic of homosexuality, sounds like it is optional as well.

With one exception. "Eunuchs" are mentioned several times in the Bible. The conventional translation is men who have been castrated, but the Bible often defines them as "chamberlains or officials." They were so described because eunuchs, being unable to marry women or father children, could not pass on property through inheritance, and so in some ways were better suited for government posts (i.e. no possibility of nepotism to the next generation.)

Which is fine. But Jesus also described another kind of eunuch, those that were born that way naturally:

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Which is good advice. If you can accept it, accept it.

[Coreece 190]

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I like John MacArthur but he tends to make me wince.

I like his exposition of scripture...and though this sermon isn't a biblical exposition, I find his point to be absolutely valid and critical.

I'm not sure if anyone read the whole sermon, but it is basically a response to an attack from a writer who questioned the truth of his book "Why Government can't save you" as well as his courage for not taking stands in the political world.

His point is this:

***It's not about whether we're against immorality, of course we're against immorality. It's about what do we view as the solution, that's the issue. Of course we would desire true and lasting virtue to characterize people. Of course we would desire righteousness rather than unrighteousness. But the issue is...how do we get there?

For many in Christian profession today, in politics, in media, lobbying, public intimidation have become the means. Pouring millions of dollars into elections, media events, an almost endless list of political pressure groups, the effort is being made to superficially sanitize America. But the question has to be asked...is this the solution? Is this the Christian mandate?

....Well let me make a very clear point at the outset here. Morality and religion will not invite or secure the blessing of God. They never have and they never will. A more moral America, a more moral and religious America does not advance in divine favor one inch. A more moral and a more religious America will not escape divine judgment any more than Pharisaic Judaism in Jesus' time escaped the devastating judgment of God in 70 A.D.

....There's only one thing God blesses, just one and that is He blesses saving faith in and love for His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the only thing He blesses....As Christians, of course we are for morality. We're not for immorality. And we can do some topical, some superficial good, we can through political means because we live in a republic and a democracy, we can mitigate public indecency in some ways. We can mitigate public scandal, can use our democratic privileges. But that does not advance us in divine favor either individually or collectively. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 16:22 it is said, unmistakably, "If any man doesn't love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema," cursed, judged, damned, condemned. There's only one thing God will bless and that's faith in and love for His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

....I'm not against those people who hate evil and wickedness, I am among them. It's not about that. It's about the solution.

....I mean, so am I going to spend all my time in working people into some level of bodily discipline to sort of restrain themselves from doing what their fallen natures finds very easy to do? Am I going to be concerned about the superficial behavior of people, or am I going to give myself to that godliness which is profitable for all things, that true godliness of the soul which is connected to eternal life? It's a question of...what is our mandate and where should our energy go? But it's more than that and I want to take it beyond that because I am concerned that people are getting caught up in this. And what captures you in it is because you do hate sin and you do hate immorality and wrong and unrighteousness and wretchedness and wickedness and all of that.

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Someone once said, "The job of the preacher is to make the uncomfortable folks feel comfortable and the comfortable ones to feel uncomfortable."

I think we'd both agree that the job of a preacher is to rightly divide/handle the word of truth:

2 Timothy 2:14-17
Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene.

When the truth is rightly divide and explained it either gives conviction (uncomfortable) or it gives assurance (comfortable).

When I hear the scripture above, it convicts me and it is my responsibility to do something about that.

When I accurately explain something in scripture or give a response using only the Bible, there is a sense of extreme joy and accomplishment/victory. it doesn't matter to me if people call me a moron, idiot, weak, mentally retared...whatever. But when I act out of carnality, pride or anger there is only shame.

I find it interesting that when I respond with the Word of God, I seldom get challenged. It is usually when I mouth off with my unfaithful senseless babble that I find myself lost and in trouble.

Now this all about how God works in my life...I don't really know you or how politically involved you are nor the reasons for that involvement. All I can say is that from what I've heard, I consider you a brother...I just disagree with extreme and/or selective political movements. I'm comfortable with a composite society that prevents repeating history's mistakes like bastly converting people as Constantine did...

I'm starting to get a little off track so I just want to end by saying that I think there is clearly a difference in how Christians are to respond to unbelievers and how they are to respond to other Christians:

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[RonD1120 62]

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>By the new covenant in Christ, the actual Sabbath day is optional
>to the believer.

And as Jesus was pretty mum on the topic of homosexuality, sounds like it is optional as well.

With one exception. "Eunuchs" are mentioned several times in the Bible. The conventional translation is men who have been castrated, but the Bible often defines them as "chamberlains or officials." They were so described because eunuchs, being unable to marry women or father children, could not pass on property through inheritance, and so in some ways were better suited for government posts (i.e. no possibility of nepotism to the next generation.)

Which is fine. But Jesus also described another kind of eunuch, those that were born that way naturally:

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Which is good advice. If you can accept it, accept it.

First, you are not referencing the NT writings of Paul and John, which I believe is selective. Frequently, we take the weight of Scripture when considering conceptual guidance.

Second, I believe born eunuchs would be more correctly defined Scripturally as asexual not homosexual.

There is no denying the fact that Scripture states that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,118]

>There is no denying the fact that Scripture states that homosexuals will
>not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Nor will fornicators, idolaters, the effeminate, the covetous, drinkers or people with foul mouths. That eliminates 99% of the people in the US, at least.

[Coreece 190]

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There is no denying the fact that Scripture states that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

That is true:
1 Corinthians 6:9-12
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

So what benefit is there in telling homosexuals that they're going to hell...We were all headed to hell homosexual or not...what does it matter if they don't believe in Christ.

I believe it's our mandate to preach the good news...not the bad.

We tell people about Christ and if they accept it, great! If not, we shake the dust from our feet and move on to the next person. right?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[RonD1120 62]

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>There is no denying the fact that Scripture states that homosexuals will
>not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Nor will fornicators, idolaters, the effeminate, the covetous, drinkers or people with foul mouths. That eliminates 99% of the people in the US, at least.

Repent and be saved.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,118]

>Repent and be saved.

. . . which, I guess, puts homosexuals in the same category of Scriptural approval as people who say "damn" occasionally.

[RonD1120 62]

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There is no denying the fact that Scripture states that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

That is true:
1 Corinthians 6:9-12
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

So what benefit is there in telling homosexuals that they're going to hell...We were all headed to hell homosexual or not...what does it matter if they don't believe in Christ.

I believe it's our mandate to preach the good news...not the bad.

We tell people about Christ and if they accept it, great! If not, we shake the dust from our feet and move on to the next person. right?

You are absolutely 100% correct.

I tried that approach starting Apr 09 and it lasted until May, I think. When I am attacked I tend to counterattack.

We, the body of Christ, need folks like you, madmax, rynodigsmusic, et. al. I am just too gnarly.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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>Repent and be saved.

. . . which, I guess, puts homosexuals in the same category of Scriptural approval as people who say "damn" occasionally.

We have comprehension and understanding.

Except that saying "damn" is just an exclamation, about the same as "wow." The point is we choose how we behave. We have control, or at least the ability to learn control, over how we express our emotions.

All homosexuals have to do is repent and choose not to pursue the perversion. It is a choice. I'm not saying it is easy, neither is quitting smoking or alcohol or drugs. It is better for you not to choose these behavior patterns.

Seek the Lord and the Holy Spirit will guide.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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All homosexuals have to do is repent and choose not to pursue the perversion. It is a choice. I'm not saying it is easy, neither is quitting smoking or alcohol or drugs. It is better for you not to choose these behavior patterns.

How do you know this? When did you chose to stop being a homosexual??

[wmw999 2,588]

You can't stop having homosexual attraction. However, you can either be celibate or have sex with a gender that does not attract you (imagine you having sex with a man).

Not sure why homosexual sex is worse than out-of-marriage sex, but it sure appears to be

Note, however, that we require the same for pedophiles. The difference, of course, is that children are children, and same-gender partners are adults. That's all the difference in the world when it comes to consent.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RonD1120 62]

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Not sure why homosexual sex is worse than out-of-marriage sex, but it sure appears to be

Wendy P.

From the standpoint of sin, it is not. Sin is sin, see my post to billvon above.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[chuteless 1]

The Lord's Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. There is NO optional day to the believer. Where did you ever get such a notion?

By your standard, you would say there is more than one way to get into the Kingdom of God. There is only ONE way, and that is through Jesus Christ.

For all those who think they can circumvent that way, by believeing in Buddha, Allah, or any of the other false gods, they are in for a big surprise.

Jesus is the ONLY way, like it or not, and there is ONLY ONE Sabbath ....and God refers to it as " MY Sabbaths".

The seventh day of the week.

[RonD1120 62]

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The Lord's Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. There is NO optional day to the believer. Where did you ever get such a notion?

By your standard, you would say there is more than one way to get into the Kingdom of God. There is only ONE way, and that is through Jesus Christ.

For all those who think they can circumvent that way, by believeing in Buddha, Allah, or any of the other false gods, they are in for a big surprise.

Jesus is the ONLY way, like it or not, and there is ONLY ONE Sabbath ....and God refers to it as " MY Sabbaths".

The seventh day of the week.

I referenced the Scripture, Mark 2:27.

The following is a quote from the Christian Research Institute.
http://www.equip.org/articles/sabbath-keeping-and-the-new-covenant

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For different reasons, both abrogationists and the school of nonabrogationists noted above agree that Christians are not obligated to observe a seventh-day Sabbath. Furthermore, while these two camps disagree about whether Christians are obligated to observe one day in seven as a Sabbath, most in the latter camp would agree with the former camp that exactly how one does so (whether out of choice or obligation) is a matter of individual conscience and should not be legislated by teaching authorities within the church.
— Steve Bright

Further references on the Sabbath are:

http://search.equip.org/search.php?zoom_query=Sabbath


I do not believe there is more than one path to salvation. Jesus Christ of Nazarath is the way, the truth and the life.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Coreece 190]

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>There is no denying the fact that Scripture states that homosexuals will
>not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Nor will...drinkers or people wilth foul mouths

You know....you don't have to lie/exaggerate to make a point...especially when you don't even believe it. The truth is enough...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

Do you believe we are still under the Law, or under Grace...Have you not learned that the Law only condemns?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Shotgun 1]

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Not sure why homosexual sex is worse than out-of-marriage sex, but it sure appears to be

Wendy P.

From the standpoint of sin, it is not. Sin is sin, see my post to billvon above.

Just curious (honest question)... Does the Bible say anything about age requirements for marriage? Would it be a sin for a 30-year-old man to marry (and then have sex with) a 10-year-old girl?

[Coreece 190]

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Just curious (honest question)...

How is that an honest question?

first, if it was a truly an honest question, wouldn't you desire to seek the truth for yourself?

second, if it was truly an honest question, why does it have absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about?

third, just say that you're trying to propose a loaded question just like all the other scoffers found in scripture and maybe I'll consider answering...after you've done your homework.

(Oh God, when will this end!)

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Shotgun 1]

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first, if it was a truly an honest question, wouldn't you desire to seek the truth for yourself?

Normally, I would. But since I just got my computer back after a few days of downtime from some nasty spyware stuff, I'm not feeling like visiting a bunch of random websites at the moment.

To my knowledge, the Bible does not address what I asked about, but I believe that Ron knows much more about it than I do.

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second, if it was truly an honest question, why does it have absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about?

Several people were talking about certain kinds of sex being sin. I was curious (regarding Ron's understanding of the Bible) if that (my question) is also considered sin.

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third, just say that you're trying to propose a loaded question and maybe I'll consider answering after you've done your homework.

It wasn't a loaded question, and it wasn't directed at you. But feel free to give an answer if you want to.

[Coreece 190]

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first, if it was a truly an honest question, wouldn't you desire to seek the truth for yourself?

Normally, I would. But since I just got my computer back after a few days of downtime from some nasty spyware stuff, I'm not feeling like visiting a bunch of random websites at the moment.

God's Word and his grace are sufficient to lead.

You remind me somewhat of myself...may I suggest reading His word "somewhere in the middle of the desert..." it worked for me!

If I may add, fasting for 3 days and then climbing a mountain alone in the desert will probably amplify the experience...but I of course can't reccomend that.

God Bless...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Shotgun 1]

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first, if it was a truly an honest question, wouldn't you desire to seek the truth for yourself?

Normally, I would. But since I just got my computer back after a few days of downtime from some nasty spyware stuff, I'm not feeling like visiting a bunch of random websites at the moment.

God's Word and his grace are sufficient to lead.

You remind me somewhat of myself...may I suggest reading His word "somewhere in the middle of the desert..." it worked for me!

If I may add, fasting for 3 days and then climbing a mountain alone in the desert will probably amplify the experience...but I of course can't reccomend that.

God Bless...

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your question. I was only seeking 'the truth' as it pertains to the specific question I asked regarding what the Bible says. I am not seeking 'The Truth' from dropzone.com or from any other websites.

[RonD1120 62]

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Not sure why homosexual sex is worse than out-of-marriage sex, but it sure appears to be

Wendy P.

From the standpoint of sin, it is not. Sin is sin, see my post to billvon above.

Just curious (honest question)... Does the Bible say anything about age requirements for marriage? Would it be a sin for a 30-year-old man to marry (and then have sex with) a 10-year-old girl?

In my opinion, since no Judeo-Christian society, specifically the U.S.A., legally allows marriage with a minor that young, it is sinful. I have heard that some states allow marriage with females at 14 or 15 years of age. The New Covenant directs us to follow the laws of the land.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Not sure why homosexual sex is worse than out-of-marriage sex, but it sure appears to be

Wendy P.

From the standpoint of sin, it is not. Sin is sin, see my post to billvon above.

Just curious (honest question)... Does the Bible say anything about age requirements for marriage? Would it be a sin for a 30-year-old man to marry (and then have sex with) a 10-year-old girl?

In my opinion, since no Judeo-Christian society, specifically the U.S.A., legally allows marriage with a minor that young, it is sinful. I have heard that some states allow marriage with females at 14 or 15 years of age. The New Covenant directs us to follow the laws of the land.

I think the flaw in that argument is to link morality with law. They may very well influence each other, but they are not the same (aside from pure theocracies). It is very common for religiously devout people of all religions to condemn certain laws (i.e., re: "unto Caesar") for being immoral and or sinful (i.e., re: "unto God").

Put another way, many laws may derive their existence from morality, but at an absolute level, morality does not - indeed, cannot - derive its very existence from mere laws.

[chuteless 1]

The seventh day is God's Sabbath. There is no other day acceptable in the sight of God.

Anyone who thinks there is, is being deceived by Satan, and will suffer the consequences for allowing himself / herself to be deceived in these end times.

Bible Institutes and colleges take a stand according to what some person has directed them to, and are unable to think for themselves. Read the Scriptures, and look at what God says, He has the final say, not some guy who just "thinks" he knows everything and is misleading people to believe a lie.

Satan is at work in the world, and if you think not, you are believing a delusion.