Happy to be a liberal

[billvon 3,133]

Saw the other thread about someone unhappy with their political philosophy, so figured I'd post this:

I'm glad to be a liberal. I'm glad I have friends who are gay, bisexual and transgendered (some even married!) and I'm glad I don't have to live in fear that they are "destroying the sanctity of my marriage" or some other nonsense.

I'm glad I generate the energy I need to run my house and get to work, and that I don't spend my time bitching about high gasoline and electricity prices. I like solving that problem for myself.

I'm glad I live in a country that takes care of its soldiers and its poor, even when that means I have to pay more in taxes. I'm also glad that we help other countries when we can; compassion is almost never a bad idea.

I'm glad we support environmental laws that help prevent sickness and death due to pollution. I'm also glad that we are (slowly) developing alternatives to oil and coal, and that we are placing a reasonable priority on preserving the natural part of our world.

I'm glad that I was able to learn how the world works, and that the government did not force me to learn religious dogma instead of science.

Sure, we have a long way to go on some of those issues. But history has shown a slow but inexorable movement towards liberal ideals, and today we have abolished slavery in the US, cleaned up the air and water, gotten women the vote, ended prohibition and have been gradually giving even the most disliked parts of our society the same rights the rest of us enjoy. Today there is more to be happy than to be unhappy about.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Saw the other thread about someone unhappy with their political philosophy, so figured I'd post this:

I'm glad to be a liberal. I'm glad I have friends who are gay, bisexual and transgendered (some even married!) and I'm glad I don't have to live in fear that they are "destroying the sanctity of my marriage" or some other nonsense.

I'm glad I generate the energy I need to run my house and get to work, and that I don't spend my time bitching about high gasoline and electricity prices. I like solving that problem for myself.

I'm glad I live in a country that takes care of its soldiers and its poor, even when that means I have to pay more in taxes. I'm also glad that we help other countries when we can; compassion is almost never a bad idea.

I'm glad we support environmental laws that help prevent sickness and death due to pollution. I'm also glad that we are (slowly) developing alternatives to oil and coal, and that we are placing a reasonable priority on preserving the natural part of our world.

I'm glad that I was able to learn how the world works, and that the government did not force me to learn religious dogma instead of science.

Sure, we have a long way to go on some of those issues. But history has shown a slow but inexorable movement towards liberal ideals, and today we have abolished slavery in the US, cleaned up the air and water, gotten women the vote, ended prohibition and have been gradually giving even the most disliked parts of our society the same rights the rest of us enjoy. Today there is more to be happy than to be unhappy about.

I'm happy for the same things - guess it's not a 'liberal' or 'conservative' thing, after all.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,133]

>I'm happy for the same things - guess it's not a 'liberal' or 'conservative'
>thing, after all.

Or you may be a little more liberal than you think!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>I'm happy for the same things - guess it's not a 'liberal' or 'conservative'
>thing, after all.

Or you may be a little more liberal than you think!

Or you presume that those 'achievements' are solely the province of liberal thought.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rhaig 0]

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>I'm happy for the same things - guess it's not a 'liberal' or 'conservative'
>thing, after all.

Or you may be a little more liberal than you think!

that sounded like a PA to me!!

--
Rob

[Bolas 5]

I'm happy to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative: Consenting adults should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't expect others to pay for their actions or inactions.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Consenting adults should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't expect others to pay for their actions or inactions.

+1

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mirage62 0]

Jeez this is what really get's to me. I really, really respect Bill. He's smart, can make great sense out of hard subjects. But it seems that he really believes that if your a conservative you can't believe in what he believes in.

The only "problem" that Bill and I have is that - it seems- that his solution must mean being taxed more. I'm glad that Bill is happy to pay more taxes, I just believe we pay enough taxes to do what we need to do.

I have to laugh at the idea that all conservatives are gay hating, energy pigs, don't want to help the poor, who trash the enviroment....ect, ect.

Bill your just not as different on these issues as it feels good to think you are!

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rushmc 23]

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I'm happy to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative: Consenting adults should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't expect others to pay for their actions or inactions.

+2

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,133]

>But it seems that he really believes that if your a conservative you
> can't believe in what he believes in.

Not at all - which is why I listed the things I am happy about instead of the things that "other" people/parties do that I am unhappy about. Many conservatives support gay marriage, for example - but that is a position championed primarily by liberals. Many conservatives support alternative energy - but again that's a cause championed mostly by liberals. (You may have heard of them; many conservatives refer to them as 'treehuggers' 'hippies' 'smug' 'out of touch' etc.)

>The only "problem" that Bill and I have is that - it seems- that his
>solution must mean being taxed more.

I don't think we have a pressing need for more taxation. More taxation will not solve all our societal ills. Nor do we need to lower taxes at any cost; lowering taxes will not solve all our economic problems. Taxes are merely the _result_ of the spending our government does. They are not a cause in and of themselves to be championed or fought.

So any solution has to involve cutting spending _first._ Then it becomes a lot easier to cut taxes. Unfortunately many people want to do that in the opposite order, and that just doesn't work.

[futuredivot 0]

Since I am the referenced conservative-I'll jump in. We share a lot of basic traits. I prefer to allot my "compassionate charity" funds a little more directly than rather than pour it into a bureaucratic hole that may forward pennies on the dollar to the recipients (I use the same standard with public sector organizations I donate to). Mayhaps your definition of conservative is skewed. Most of my friends that consider ourselves conservative have more of a keep your nose out of our business and your hands out of our pockets outlook. I like that our country has traditionally rewarded our brightest and hardest working citizens. I hate that leveling the field has lowered the standard.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the female vote thing.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Shotgun 1]

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We'll have to agree to disagree on the female vote thing.

What's your opinion on the "female vote thing"?

[rehmwa 2]

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>I don't think we have a pressing need for more taxation. More taxation will not solve all our societal ills.
.
.
.
.
So any solution has to involve cutting spending _first._ Then it becomes a lot easier to cut taxes..

un huh - so far, this post and the first post I'd label you more of a libertarian

that is if labels actually meant anything -

other than two things:

the point that calling yourself a 'liberal' gives you a warm fuzzy "feeling"

and the idea that the government CAN'T operate with a constrained budget (you have to cut spending first, before reducing income) you've pre-decided that if we cut the income, they won't respond with less spending as a result

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,133]

>the point that calling yourself a 'liberal' gives you a warm fuzzy "feeling"

Well, better than calling yourself a conservative and having it suck, I suppose. I guess I'm not that afraid to state what I believe, even if people like you ridicule me for it.

>and the idea that the government CAN'T operate with a constrained
>budget (you have to cut spending first, before reducing income) you've
>pre-decided that if we cut the income, they won't respond with less
>spending as a result

That's the "starve the beast" approach. We've tried that. Our debt is now over thirteen trillion dollars. It didn't work. There's that old definition of insanity where you do exactly the same thing over and over and expect different results; at some point you have to think it through and try a better approach.

[rehmwa 2]

I'm not ridiculing for it. I'll ridicule the label because it's meaningless. Stating what you believe in and not trying to fit it into a label is more worthy, though.

I think your post really highlights that most of us want the same things and that the fringy elements are driving all of us nuts.

as for starve the beast - it could work, if we put responsible/ethical people in charge rather than 'politicians'

but either way - cut spending/cut taxes, or cut taxes/cut spending, or both at the same time, or either one or the other - they are all in the direction of goodness. What we all know, is that increasing spending and increasing taxes at the same time (there's your real insanity) is a disaster

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,133]

>as for starve the beast - it could work . . .

Well, I mean, it could, but it didn't. The reason is that massive debt does not require a reduction in spending; indeed, due to debt service, it requires an increase.

>What we all know, is that increasing spending and increasing taxes at
>the same time is a disaster

Increasing both at the same time works. An example would be taxation during World War II; the top tax rate was a whopping 94%. We did pretty well economically during that time.

Decreasing both at the same time works. Increasing spending and decreasing taxation doesn't work; it gets us massive debts (and to where we are now.) Decreasing spending and increasing taxation can solve that problem, but after the debt problem is solved it doesn't make any sense.

[Bolas 5]

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>as for starve the beast - it could work . . .

Well, I mean, it could, but it didn't. The reason is that massive debt does not require a reduction in spending; indeed, due to debt service, it requires an increase.

>What we all know, is that increasing spending and increasing taxes at
>the same time is a disaster

Increasing both at the same time works. An example would be taxation during World War II; the top tax rate was a whopping 94%. We did pretty well economically during that time.

Decreasing both at the same time works. Increasing spending and decreasing taxation doesn't work; it gets us massive debts (and to where we are now.) Decreasing spending and increasing taxation can solve that problem, but after the debt problem is solved it doesn't make any sense.

I'm all for raising taxes to go to paying down the debt but not until spending is cut. Otherwise the additional raised will just be the justification for new or expanding gov't programs.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[RonD1120 62]

Quote

Saw the other thread about someone unhappy with their political philosophy, so figured I'd post this:

I'm glad to be a liberal. I'm glad I have friends who are gay, bisexual and transgendered (some even married!) and I'm glad I don't have to live in fear that they are "destroying the sanctity of my marriage" or some other nonsense.

I'm glad I generate the energy I need to run my house and get to work, and that I don't spend my time bitching about high gasoline and electricity prices. I like solving that problem for myself.

I'm glad I live in a country that takes care of its soldiers and its poor, even when that means I have to pay more in taxes. I'm also glad that we help other countries when we can; compassion is almost never a bad idea.

I'm glad we support environmental laws that help prevent sickness and death due to pollution. I'm also glad that we are (slowly) developing alternatives to oil and coal, and that we are placing a reasonable priority on preserving the natural part of our world.

I'm glad that I was able to learn how the world works, and that the government did not force me to learn religious dogma instead of science.

Sure, we have a long way to go on some of those issues. But history has shown a slow but inexorable movement towards liberal ideals, and today we have abolished slavery in the US, cleaned up the air and water, gotten women the vote, ended prohibition and have been gradually giving even the most disliked parts of our society the same rights the rest of us enjoy. Today there is more to be happy than to be unhappy about.

SO HOW TO VOTE? NOT VOTING PUTS EITHER PARTY IN POWER.

http://www.infowars.com/the-difference/

The Difference Between Republicans and Democrates


J. Speer-Williams
Infowars.com
June 16, 2010

Neo-cons love war and torture, increased regulations, tyranny, and taxes; with our taxes going to the plutocrats of the private banking community. They support governmental destruction of our environment, under the pretense of protecting it. They, also, overtly support corporatism (fascism for oligarchs) and any other measures supported by the republican party that enrich the private International Monetary/Banking Cartel at the expense of the American people.

Neo-libs love war and torture, increased regulations, tyranny, and taxes; with our taxes going to the plutocrats of the private banking community. They support governmental destruction of our environment, under the pretense of protecting it. They, also, covertly support corporatism (socialism for oligarchs) and any other measures supported by the democratic party that enrich the private International Monetary/Banking Cartel at the expense of the American people.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DiverMike 5]

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In Reply To
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I'm happy to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative: Consenting adults should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't expect others to pay for their actions or inactions.

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+3

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm all for raising taxes to go to paying down the debt but not until spending is cut. Otherwise the additional raised will just be the justification for new or expanding gov't programs.

'liberals' just don't believe that - despite decades of it being in evidence.... (and a basic understanding of human nature)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,603]

Altogether too many people don't understand that, regardless of their stated political persuasion.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

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Altogether too many people don't understand that, regardless of their stated political persuasion.

Wendy P.

Or you could say it doesn't matter your affliation, if you DON'T understand that simple fact, it gets us where we are now.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skyrider 0]

Hummm...I always thought Mods were to remain Nuetral!

[rehmwa 2]

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regardless of their stated political persuasion

I like that "stated" political persuasion

I doubt most understand what liberal and conservative really means vs the sterotypes of the terms puked out by their opponents in use today

if you take a term and be sufficiently vague about it and then just try to attribute positive (and sometimes very contradictory) things to it (in other words, tell whatever audience you happen to be talking to at the time what they want to hear), eventually everybody will claim to be a member.

And, eventually any wacked out idea you can pitch under that umbrella will be followed by most of the devotees.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 30]

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Hummm...I always thought Mods were to remain Nuetral!

You always thought wrong then. Mods are there to make sure the forum rules are followed. Nothing less, nothing more.

Remster