Knock , Knock! , Who's There? SWAT

[kelpdiver 2]

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Ah, but we had a warrant.

Hussein was a parole violator. And unlike this guy, he actually had a crminal history.

[rhaig 0]

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They are gun nuts ... doing what gun nuts do.

working to protect your right to keep and bear arms without unlawful confiscation.

It's what they do...

--
Rob

[Amazon 7]

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Regarding the article you posted, what the hell does Obama have to do with any of that? Do members of/subscribers to oregonfirearms.org really believe that the White House had anything to do with the police overstepping their limits in this specific incident? Or is this just another opportunity for a drive-by swipe at Obama?

Don

Ding ding ding

We have a winner folks.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not to suggest that I agree with the police tactics in this incident (because I don't), but how many people did the police kill in this incident?

These late night raids, esp the no knock variant, can easily lead to a shootout (typically = dead citizen) because they wake up to armed intruders. It's especially sad when this happens when the SWAT gets the address wrong.

[quade 4]

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Not to suggest that I agree with the police tactics in this incident (because I don't), but how many people did the police kill in this incident?

These late night raids, esp the no knock variant, can easily lead to a shootout (typically = dead citizen) because they wake up to armed intruders. It's especially sad when this happens when the SWAT gets the address wrong.

That's -probably- why they made the phone call. What's he going to do, shoot the phone? Even the article said the cops explained the situation to him in a way that would minimize violence. In this instance the responsibility to not escalate things was given to him which is a shit load better than a no-knock visit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

the few cops I know hate no-knock warrants. One of them described it to me as legalized home-invasion + kidnapping.

--
Rob

[quade 4]

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the few cops I know hate no-knock warrants. One of them described it to me as legalized home-invasion + kidnapping.

I would also think it's one of the more dangerous situation they get put into as well. I wouldn't like it either!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[winsor 236]

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Not to suggest that I agree with the police tactics in this incident (because I don't), but how many people did the police kill in this incident?

These late night raids, esp the no knock variant, can easily lead to a shootout (typically = dead citizen) because they wake up to armed intruders. It's especially sad when this happens when the SWAT gets the address wrong.

That's -probably- why they made the phone call. What's he going to do, shoot the phone? Even the article said the cops explained the situation to him in a way that would minimize violence. In this instance the responsibility to not escalate things was given to him which is a shit load better than a no-knock visit.

I am, as usual, appalled by your standpoint. That you should seek to justify the behavior of the authorities is simply nauseating.

If having firearms is a sign of being dangerous and unstable, the assembly outside this guy's house was certainly an order of magnitude more dangerous and unstable. Also, they were there with the express purpose of USING them in a violent fashion if he did not obey with their capricious dicta.

The fact that he was threatened with lethal force is okay with you. That he was told "do what we say or we will kill you" put the onus on him from where you sit.

That sort of rationale is beneath contempt - but at least you're consistent.


BSBD,

Winsor

[quade 4]

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Not to suggest that I agree with the police tactics in this incident (because I don't), but how many people did the police kill in this incident?

These late night raids, esp the no knock variant, can easily lead to a shootout (typically = dead citizen) because they wake up to armed intruders. It's especially sad when this happens when the SWAT gets the address wrong.

That's -probably- why they made the phone call. What's he going to do, shoot the phone? Even the article said the cops explained the situation to him in a way that would minimize violence. In this instance the responsibility to not escalate things was given to him which is a shit load better than a no-knock visit.

I am, as usual, appalled by your standpoint. That you should seek to justify the behavior of the authorities is simply nauseating.

If having firearms is a sign of being dangerous and unstable, the assembly outside this guy's house was certainly an order of magnitude more dangerous and unstable. Also, they were there with the express purpose of USING them in a violent fashion if he did not obey with their capricious dicta.

The fact that he was threatened with lethal force is okay with you. That he was told "do what we say or we will kill you" put the onus on him from where you sit.

That sort of rationale is beneath contempt - but at least you're consistent.


BSBD,

Winsor

Oh Winsor, please let me know where to send the Pepto-Bismol for your upset stomach.

Who the said anything about his having firearms and being the sign of him being dangerous? Certainly not me. I said, and I quote;

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This seems a bit overboard, but we're only hearing one side of the story. My guess is there's more to it.

My god! That is a radical concept. You're right. I am "beneath contempt."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Regarding the article you posted, what the hell does Obama have to do with any of that? Do members of/subscribers to oregonfirearms.org really believe that the White House had anything to do with the police overstepping their limits in this specific incident? Or is this just another opportunity for a drive-by swipe at Obama?

Don

follow the thread back up and see who really started it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DaVinci 0]

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They are gun nuts ... doing what gun nuts do.

And the anti gun nuts are doing what they do....

Funny how you approve of an illegal search and confiscation when it is about guns....

I bet you would not approve of the police going to a suspected drug owner and dragging him out at 4AM and making him take a drug test.

[kawisixer01 0]

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And just to fuck up the thread - for those of you who think this wasn't an unreasonable move to prevent a potential workplace shooting - do you also agree that invading Iraq to ensure the WMDs were really gone was reasonable prudence?

Not to suggest that I agree with the police tactics in this incident (because I don't), but how many people did the police kill in this incident?

Don

Give me liberty or give me death....

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Funny how you approve of an illegal search and confiscation when it is about guns....

Funny how he said nothing of the sort. He was replying to my post in which I wondered if people really believed that Obama personally ordered the raid. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to disagree with the police action in this case without feeling the need to blame it on Obama.

It does seem, though, that the people who are most vocal about 2nd amendment rights seem to have a tendency towards an irrational paranoia about Obama.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[JohnRich 4]

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They are gun nuts ... doing what gun nuts do.

Over in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3884124;#3884124, you stated: "I am a gun owner."

So, doesn't that make you a "gun nut" also?

Or perhaps it's not the mere ownership of a gun that makes one a "nut". Maybe it has to be coupled with certain beliefs too. And if so, then what gun ownership beliefs make one a "nut", say, compared to yourself, whom you apparently consider not to be a nut, even though you claim to own a gun? Please elaborate for us, to help us determine exactly what your definition is of a "gun nut".

By the way, what kind of guns do you own?

[rushmc 23]

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Funny how you approve of an illegal search and confiscation when it is about guns....

Funny how he said nothing of the sort. He was replying to my post in which I wondered if people really believed that Obama personally ordered the raid. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to disagree with the police action in this case without feeling the need to blame it on Obama.

It does seem, though, that the people who are most vocal about 2nd amendment rights seem to have a tendency towards an irrational paranoia about Obama.

Don

Who the hell is blaming Obama?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[happythoughts 0]

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Even the article said the cops explained the situation to him in a way that would minimize violence.

Ever since Waco was visited by the Janet Reno hit squad.

You should read the book Cold Zero by Christopher Whitcomb, who spent 6 years as a sniper on the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

He was present, as a sniper, at Ruby Ridge and was at Waco. Certainly, writing from the inside.

He stated that after Waco, they started talking people out.
At one standoff, the mother of a subject ordered her adult son to come out and he did. No one hurt.

The ATF/FBI changed their tactics after some spending time in front of Congressional committees.

The volume of events went from everyday calls to almost none.
The old school tactic would have been to storm the place, absolutely.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Who the hell is blaming Obama?

From the article linked by skyrider:

"This is the new face of "gun control" in the age of Obama."
"... especially now that, thanks to the NRA and the Brady Campaign joining forces, "mental health" records are being sent by the states to the Obama administration. "

The article strongly insinuates that the police action is related to Obama or the Obama administration. Typical right-wing tactics: fan the flames of paranoia, then use that fear to solicit donations.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[diablopilot 2]

You're one of those people that thinks the Minority Report had a great idea in it, eh?

Here you have no proof, evidence, or even motive to commit a crime, much less any crime committed to begin with.

EVERY LEO involved in this raid needs to be striped of their badge, and duties, and face charges for rights violations.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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And just to fuck up the thread - for those of you who think this wasn't an unreasonable move to prevent a potential workplace shooting - do you also agree that invading Iraq to ensure the WMDs were really gone was reasonable prudence? Surely taking Hussein's (or the corrupt UN) word isn't going to do it.

Kudos to you sir.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Regarding the article you posted, what the hell does Obama have to do with any of that? Do members of/subscribers to oregonfirearms.org really believe that the White House had anything to do with the police overstepping their limits in this specific incident? Or is this just another opportunity for a drive-by swipe at Obama?

Don

Obviously the article has a bias, I haven't seen anyone in this thread really jumping on that band wagon yet.

I will blame the White House, and Congress on this one.....but it started before this administration. The Patriot act, the increase in powers allowed to LE without oversight, seizure laws.

There are some simple truths when dealing with humans. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Always.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[quade 4]

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You're one of those people that thinks the Minority Report had a great idea in it, eh?

You're assuming what you've read about this case is all there is to the story.

You should probably know there's usually more to it than is just in one side's story.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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You're one of those people that thinks the Minority Report had a great idea in it, eh?

You're assuming what you've read about this case is all there is to the story.

You should probably know there's usually more to it than is just in one side's story.

Often. "Peaceful Palestinian aid supplies."

But not always. Did this not get any other coverage? Was that because the story wasn't interesting enough? Seems unlikely. With the news reporting every sort of workplace violence incident these days, I'd expect to see something on a 'near massacre prevented by reasonable gun control measures.' It would talk about how he had an arsenal and society needed to act preemptively.

We got plenty of people here who are perfectly happy to throw away civil rights, esp as it related to mental health. Medical privacy isn't important to them, nor the consequences of yet another reason to not see a shrink when you're feeling bad.

[kelpdiver 2]

From a local paper:
"David Fidanque, executive director of the Oregon chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said his organization wasn't likely to get involved in an incident of this type, but said Pyles could have a case against police if he were taken into custody improperly."
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100312/NEWS/3120325/-1/NEWSMAP

Can always count on the ACLU to defend 9/10th of the Bill of Rights.

Nothing in this article to support notion there was another side to the story, but it's a small paper.

...
This later article from the same paper has much more background information:
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100408/NEWS/4080312/0/NEWSMAP

It points to a guy really pissed about work, but who did not make any actual (vs perceived) threats. It's a nice case subject for the philosophical debate on safety versus rights. One thing missing from this is what lead to the initial forced leave of absence. The way it played out certainly has made it impossible for him to resume his job, no matter what an extensive psych evaluation may conclude. Once you've been told your coworker might be a crazed gunman with murder on his mind, you're not going to work well with him.

The gun purchases were of course the trigger point. Of the 5 he purchased, I have two of them. They're more indicative of a collector than a would be rambo. Why buy a .45 and a .380 (the original wimpy Walther 007 gun) if that were the intent?

[quade 4]

Be that as it may, you'll notice a number of details vary considerably from the article linked in the original post.

For instance, a call at 6am is hardly the "middle of the night."

"Pyles voluntarily came out of his house just before 7 a.m., was handcuffed, and agreed to point out guns and ammunition in his home so police could collect them," is different than, "The police enter your home without a warrant, without permission, without probable cause and confiscate your firearms."

Thanks for ferreting the other article out for us to compare the accounts.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Who the hell is blaming Obama?

From the article linked by skyrider:

"This is the new face of "gun control" in the age of Obama."
"... especially now that, thanks to the NRA and the Brady Campaign joining forces, "mental health" records are being sent by the states to the Obama administration. "

The article strongly insinuates that the police action is related to Obama or the Obama administration. Typical right-wing tactics: fan the flames of paranoia, then use that fear to solicit donations.

Don

Ok
I dont remember seeing that part
But
Obama did fight to keep those Patriot Act laws that Amazon cried about
Obama admin has said it will sign the UN's small arms agreement

While maybe not directly related to this case the direction is very very clear. And to go that direction registration is key

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln