Staging Scenes and Tampering with Evidence...

[Kennedy 0]

... it's not just for the Israeli/Arab conflict.

News about troubles at the US / Mexican border:

[URL "http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37598115/ns/world_news-americas/"]FBI: Mexicans chased away agents after slaying (MSNBC)[/URL]

[URL "http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/09/mexico-tensions-heightened-border-patrol-agent-kills-mexican-teen-near-el-paso/"]FBI: Mexican soldiers used rifles to chase off U.S. Border Patrol (FOX News)[/URL]

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rhaig 0]

The part about the federales crossing over, picking something up, and taking it back is disturbing. Considering they're using that to claim the border patrol agent crossed the border to shoot the boy.

That being said, what kind of idiot shoots at people who are throwing rocks!?!?! If they were flinging rocks from a catapult, and the rocks weighed several pounds, that's one thing, but rocks that are hand thrown?

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Rob

[Kennedy 0]

Have you ever had someone throw rocks at you with the intent of harming you?

Deadly force is generally defined as force which would create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm (or "great bodily harm" or "serious bodily injury").

Serious bodily harm (or GBH or SBI) is generally defined as "An injury to a person which causes serious and permanent disfigurement, permanent loss or impairment of any bodily function or organ, or leads to death."

Do you think a rock being thrown at you could cause permanent disfigurement?
Do you think a rock being thrown at you could cause loss of body function?
Do you think a rock being thrown at you could cause loss of an organ?
Do you think a rock being thrown at you could cause death?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[BillyVance 35]

I remember as a kid throwing rocks with my best friend, and we somehow started throwing at each other, just the small 1-2" sized pebbles. He ended up taking one on the head somewhere on the scalp and left a bloody cut. Years later when he went into the US Army and had his hair cut short military style, and came home briefly after a tour of Afghanistan, I saw the scar from the rock I threw.

Rocks can do damage if the thrower gets lucky.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andy9o8 2]

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Rocks can do damage if the thrower gets lucky.

We'll call that the "Goliath principle."

[turtlespeed 226]

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I remember as a kid throwing rocks with my best friend, and we somehow started throwing at each other, just the small 1-2" sized pebbles. He ended up taking one on the head somewhere on the scalp and left a bloody cut. Years later when he went into the US Army and had his hair cut short military style, and came home briefly after a tour of Afghanistan, I saw the scar from the rock I threw.

Rocks can do damage if the thrower gets lucky.

Or has practiced and become proficient.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Kennedy 0]

Oh, I know what rocks can do. I had the unfortunate experience of rendering first aid to a child who was struck in the head by a rock thrown by his friend. They were not using pebbles. The rock was only the size of my fist, but the injured boy was med-evac-ed out and they don't know if he was going to live, let alone walk or think normally. I've also seen the corpse of a man struck over the head with a chunk of concrete. Both were very messy and unfortunately very memorable.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rhaig 0]

I understand the emphasis meant by your repetition.

I understand the potential for damage from large size ricks being thrown.

I also understand the use of deadly force and the laws allowing it in certain cases.

While I believe that there may have been threat of serious bodily harm due to a potential impact from a rock thrown, I question the size of these rocks and the damage that might be done by a rock thrown by a 15yo boy across the river.

Do you know how large these rocks were? I do not and wish you would share if you do, as it might change my opinion.

Do you know the width of the river at that point? I know at some points it's a trickle, and at others it's tens of yards across.

Have you been trained in the use of deadly force, when it is appropriate, and when it is allowed? (note that they are not the same)

For example, in TX, it's legal to use deadly force to stop "criminal mischief at night" which could be something as simple as a kid TP-ing your front yard. That doesn't mean it's appropriate. One could say the same thing for a 15-yo kid throwing rocks.... depending on how close he was, how likely it was he would make contact, and how large the rocks were.

--
Rob

[JohnRich 4]

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That being said, what kind of idiot shoots at people who are throwing rocks!?!?!

An "idiot" who is out-numbered, surrounded and ambushed, with deadly missile coming from all directions, include above from a bridge, with great force.

And if that gang manages to knock you unconscious, what are they going to do to you then while you're laying there defenseless?

[rhaig 0]

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That being said, what kind of idiot shoots at people who are throwing rocks!?!?!

An "idiot" who is out-numbered, surrounded and ambushed, with deadly missile coming from all directions, include above from a bridge, with great force.

where did you read they were tossing them from the bridge? I hadn't seen that.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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And if that gang manages to knock you unconscious, what are they going to do to you then while you're laying there defenseless?

I've been discussing this in PM with the OP. I will amend my statement above by saying that given the incomplete picture of the situation that we all have, were I the officer in question, I believe I would have abandoned my suspect and sought refuge in my vehicle, or out of range of the rock-throwers. I also understand that I cannot know what was really going on there (nor can any of us here) nor what I really would have done had I been that officer.

--
Rob

[masterrig 1]

Border Patrol Agents get that kind of treatment on a too regular basis. Little pebbles don't get thrown at them but bricks, bottles, anything. Some of those rocks weigh anywhere from 2 to 5-lbs.! Kids are paid by drug cartels and human smugglers to divert attention so they can get drugs or humans into this country. Agents are continually getting injured or killed in this manner. That Agent was defending his life.


Chuck

[futuredivot 0]

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That being said, what kind of idiot shoots at people who are throwing rocks!?!?!

What kind of idiot throws rocks at a guy with a gun?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Ion01 2]

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And if that gang manages to knock you unconscious, what are they going to do to you then while you're laying there defenseless?

I've been discussing this in PM with the OP. I will amend my statement above by saying that given the incomplete picture of the situation that we all have, were I the officer in question, I believe I would have abandoned my suspect and sought refuge in my vehicle, or out of range of the rock-throwers. I also understand that I cannot know what was really going on there (nor can any of us here) nor what I really would have done had I been that officer.

So you would quite doing your job of securing the borders of america and send the people trying to cross the border a message that if they all get together and throw rocks instead of using guns then you will have to retreat allowing them to come across? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

edited for miss spelled word...

[masterrig 1]

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And if that gang manages to knock you unconscious, what are they going to do to you then while you're laying there defenseless?

I've been discussing this in PM with the OP. I will amend my statement above by saying that given the incomplete picture of the situation that we all have, were I the officer in question, I believe I would have abandoned my suspect and sought refuge in my vehicle, or out of range of the rock-throwers. I also understand that I cannot know what was really going on there (nor can any of us here) nor what I really would have done had I been that officer.

There ya' go! None of us was there. The thing is, that Agent can use his firearm to defend his life or another life. You don't just give-up your suspect. That's why they were throwing rocks, to get the Agent to leave. From all I've read on the subject, right now, it appears the Agent was within his rights. Also, the fact that (what appeared to be) a cop from Mexico crossed to this side of the border, picked something up and placed it by the body. Shortly thereafter, a .40 cal. casing is found next to the body!?? Like I said earlier, they aren't throwing pea-pebbles. They are throwing 2-5lb. rocks! I would consider that a deadly weapon.


Chuck

[rhaig 0]

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Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

edited for miss spelled word...

considering other agents have been put in jail for doing their jobs, yeah. Me, with my current training... I'd have cut and run. AND I have the balls to say it.

put me through their training, give me their resources, I might know more about what's available and my answer might change. Until then, yeah, I'd cut and run to my vehicle where a rock, or brick, or cinder block wouldn't injure me.

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Rob

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

edited for miss spelled word...

considering other agents have been put in jail for doing their jobs, yeah. Me, with my current training... I'd have cut and run. AND I have the balls to say it.

put me through their training, give me their resources, I might know more about what's available and my answer might change. Until then, yeah, I'd cut and run to my vehicle where a rock, or brick, or cinder block wouldn't injure me.

This would have been the best approach.

[Ion01 2]

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Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

edited for miss spelled word...

considering other agents have been put in jail for doing their jobs, yeah. Me, with my current training... I'd have cut and run. AND I have the balls to say it.

put me through their training, give me their resources, I might know more about what's available and my answer might change. Until then, yeah, I'd cut and run to my vehicle where a rock, or brick, or cinder block wouldn't injure me.

Well, you do have a point there in that the US often prefers to protect non-citizens at the expense of its citizens. Many non-citizens know this and take advantage of it. Therein lies the true problem.

[TKE_440 0]

It's funny because you don't know more/less than anyone else but you are quick to judge all legal enforcement. "Beer Summit" comes to mind...

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what kind of idiot shoots at people who are throwing rocks!?!?!

see... you don't know.

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I question the size of these rocks and the damage that might be done by a rock thrown by a 15yo boy across the river.

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...given the incomplete picture of the situation that we all have

And this confused me.

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I'd have cut and run. AND I have the balls to say it.
put me through their training, give me their resources, I might know more about what's available and my answer might change.

Guess what... the office in question did have the training. Because he had it, his reaction with his "resources" were different than your hypothetical reaction.

But oh yeah, you just like to blindly judge.

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what kind of idiot shoots at people who are throwing rocks!?!?!

And don't play down that just because the kid was a fifteen your old that he was a child. While I agree that is way to young to die for anyone, fifteen year olds are just as capable as a twenty year old to take a life and/or injure others.

Edited to add the reply was for Rhaig.

[rhaig 0]

don't you get it?

did you see the comment that I was discussing this offline and wanted to ammend my original statement?

it's referred to some as "learning"

I know it doesn't happen much on these forums. perhaps that's why it confused you.

you quote my original reply, then my clarification, and then my original reply.

quite the spin-meister. You should work for a politician.

--
Rob

[TKE_440 0]

Oh no, I caught that. But my reply was about the unjust haste that you immediately had for the agent that shot the young man. The same as our POTUS irresponsibly remarking the case about law enforcement, albeit I will agree that these two situations are miles apart in caliber. Just what came to my mind though.
The confusing part was that you played the idea that you would run to your car and "hideout" and wait for these silly bandits to get bored and walk on home leaving everybody for a great dinner time story at the table. (BTW, you said this in the same sentence, but after you "amended" your remarks, still referring that this agent was out of line.) You then say if you had their training, which if it were you, you would have, then you would have acted differently. Leaving this statement confusing to me (again after you made your amendment.)

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were I the officer in question, I believe I would have abandoned my suspect and sought refuge in my vehicle,...

Sidenote, I read everything before I posted the original reply, and it would seem to me a retraction for unjustly calling the guy an Idiot for protecting his own life is due because of Learning.

[rhaig 0]

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Oh no, I caught that. But my reply was about the unjust haste that you immediately had for the agent that shot the young man. The same as our POTUS irresponsibly remarking the case about law enforcement, albeit I will agree that these two situations are miles apart in caliber. Just what came to my mind though.
The confusing part was that you played the idea that you would run to your car and "hideout" and wait for these silly bandits to get bored and walk on home leaving everybody for a great dinner time story at the table. (BTW, you said this in the same sentence, but after you "amended" your remarks, still referring that this agent was out of line.) You then say if you had their training, which if it were you, you would have, then you would have acted differently. Leaving this statement confusing to me (again after you made your amendment.)

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were I the officer in question, I believe I would have abandoned my suspect and sought refuge in my vehicle,...

Sidenote, I read everything before I posted the original reply, and it would seem to me a retraction for unjustly calling the guy an Idiot for protecting his own life is due because of Learning.

fair. your condescending tone aside, I will retract my idiot comment.

--
Rob

[TKE_440 0]

On that... I really try and not to sound condescending. The girlfriend says she can never tell when I am playing or not, as well as the folks, friends, well... everybody. Guess the same comes out when I type. Wasn't really trying to upend ya on it... just playing around. Sorry to offend, Man!

[masterrig 1]

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Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

edited for miss spelled word...

considering other agents have been put in jail for doing their jobs, yeah. Me, with my current training... I'd have cut and run. AND I have the balls to say it.

put me through their training, give me their resources, I might know more about what's available and my answer might change. Until then, yeah, I'd cut and run to my vehicle where a rock, or brick, or cinder block wouldn't injure me.

This would have been the best approach.

There were also adults, throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents. Also, they aren't trained to 'cut and run'. Bottom line here is, the agents were being assaulted with 'deadly weapons'. Rocks CAN kill! The Agents were just better prepared. Those folks knew exactly what was going on. It's a very common 'tactic' for helpine mules get across the border. I don't like the idea of a kid being killed but he was old enough to know better and from the story I read, had been told to stay away from the area he was in.


Chuck