The ineptitude of private enterprise ...

[riddler 0]

is exceeded only by their greed. Anytime in the future that I hear some right-winger proclaim that the government screws everything up, I am going to point out how BP has been trying for over a month to stop an oil leak

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Don't cut down the tree just because you find a few rotten apples.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

I hear some right-winger proclaim that the government screws everything up, I am going to point out how BP has been trying for over a month to stop an oil leak

Ahhhhhh, ok and you think if the Govt came in and took control they could stop it any faster?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,111]

>Ahhhhhh, ok and you think if the Govt came in and took control they
>could stop it any faster?

Nope; that pooch has been screwed already. The time to stop it would have been several months back. But that would have impacted profits.

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

>Ahhhhhh, ok and you think if the Govt came in and took control they
>could stop it any faster?

Nope; that pooch has been screwed already. The time to stop it would have been several months back. But that would have impacted profits.

What does Obama's inaction have to do with profits?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

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Ahhhhhh, ok and you think if the Govt came in and took control they could stop it any faster?

Maybe. A number of the things BP has been doing have been designed to stop the leak, but keep the oil flowing. For instance, the "Top Hat" procedure. That was simply time wasted.

Further, BP should really have never been allowed to drill in the first place if they didn't have a procedure in place to stop the disaster.

New rules should be enacted where no industry should be able to start something they don't have a provable way to stop. Let's call it the "undo button" rule.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Quote

Ahhhhhh, ok and you think if the Govt came in and took control they could stop it any faster?

Maybe. A number of the things BP has been doing have been designed to stop the leak, but keep the oil flowing. For instance, the "Top Hat" procedure. That was simply time wasted.

Further, BP should really have never been allowed to drill in the first place if they didn't have a procedure in place to stop the disaster.

New rules should be enacted where no industry should be able to start something they don't have a provable way to stop. Let's call it the "undo button" rule.

But wait, didn't they just receive a safety award?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

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But wait, didn't they just receive a safety award?

You mean the one they were going to be given by the industry bought and paid for MMS put in place by the previous Administration?

No. As it turns out they didn't get it.
http://www.themaritimelawyer.com/bp-will-not-receive-safety-award-this-year-after-all/

As for the MMS itself, I can guarantee you we've not seen the last of the heads roll over there. As soon as this fiasco is under control, there are going to be major investigations launched and it wouldn't surprise me at all if every seat all the way down to the guy that runs the coffee machines is replaced. There will be a new sheriff in town. You can count of that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

is exceeded only by their greed. Anytime in the future that I hear some right-winger proclaim that the government screws everything up, I am going to point out how BP has been trying for over a month to stop an oil leak

No question that this has been a tragic comedy of errors (I especially noted how BP said last night it was time for plan B - aren't we on plan J by now?).

That said...Katrina was the Feds doing. And certainly they have been involved with this one. Some problems are hard to unscrew. It may be a case where the key is prevention in the first place.

[Rookie120 0]

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For instance, the "Top Hat" procedure. That was simply time wasted.

Well they are building the sequel to that TOP HAT. SO lets hope they are successful on this one.

Quote

Further, BP should really have never been allowed to drill in the first place if they didn't have a procedure in place to stop the disaster.

They did. That valve on the ocean floor has failed both in the auto and manual operation. I still have never gotten any official reason why this valve has failed. Anybody have an explanation?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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You mean the one they were going to be given by the industry bought and paid for MMS put in place by the previous Administration?

Oh god! Here we go, IT'S BUSH's FAULT. Everyone can go home now.

As for the MMS director Elizabeth Birnbaum, the head of the Minerals Management, she just got the damn job less than a year ago.

Quote

There will be a new sheriff in town. You can count of that.

Great! another bloated Govt agency stuffed with another mans cronies! It's the same song and dance my friend, the ony thing that changes are the actors.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[quade 4]

Quote

Oh god! Here we go, IT'S BUSH's FAULT. Everyone can go home now.

Never said it was Bush's fault, but let the blame for the MMS lay with its bureaucracy and ineptitude that has been in place for many years now.

And while Elizabeth Birnbaum may have only been in her position for under a year, she had been a part of the MMS from pretty much day one of the previous Administration. She is symptomatic of the corruption and shenanigans that's been going on for a long time over there.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,111]

>What does Obama's inaction have to do with profits?

?? Nothing. No one mentioned him.

Your obsession with him is getting a little strange.

[billvon 3,111]

>I still have never gotten any official reason why this valve has failed.
>Anybody have an explanation?

From what I've learned there are three sorts of valves that a BOP can have in it:

1) Rams designed to close without cutting anything. These either close on empty wells or have 'cutouts' so the drill assembly can remain in the middle while the ram closes around it.

2) Shear rams designed to cut through the drill assembly. This is obviously a pain in the butt to "undo" but they are more foolproof than rams relying on clearances around the drill assembly. They cannot generally cut through a "tool joint" which is the joint between pipes of the assembly going down the borehole.

3) Annular seals. These are circular and seal around the pipe from the sides.

1) and 3) need a relatively intact well, with the drill assembly in the center. If it gets offcenter (i.e. pressures get way too high and push the pipe out or the rig above it sinks) then they don't work as well. 2) is supposed to be a last ditch method of sealing the well but it doesn't always work depending on the position of the joints in the drill assembly.

There is also something apparently wrong with the position of the valves within the BOP which may be restricting the flow of hydraulic oil to the shear actuators. I think that since it's so deep it's hard to diagnose.

[riddler 0]

Quote

Don't cut down the tree just because you find a few rotten apples.

I'm willing to cut down the tree - in this case big oil - in order to preserve the orchard of capitalism.

I'm just tired of hearing about "socialism is wrong because the government can't do anything right." News flash - private corporations are every bit as screwed up as government.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

Don't cut down the tree just because you find a few rotten apples.

I'm willing to cut down the tree - in this case big oil - in order to preserve the orchard of capitalism.

I'm just tired of hearing about "socialism is wrong because the government can't do anything right." News flash - private corporations are every bit as screwed up as government.

Big oil is a branch of the tree of private enterprise. If the apple is rotten, toss it out. If the entire branch is bad, chop it off. But the tree itself has been the foundation for most of what we call progress ever since the discovery of ways to control fire.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

Quote

But the tree itself has been the foundation for most of what we call progress ever since the discovery of ways to control fire.

Not really. Only since the Renaissance and even then not really until the industrial revolution. Before that the VAST majority of improvements were due to governments. The common man was simply not educated nor financed enough to be able to do much on his own.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Rookie120 0]

Sounds like what I have read also. From what I understand the assembly at the bottom has 3 valves in it. Thats the way it sounds to me. I just cannot believe all modes of shutting it off had failed. It is a design flaw of what the hell happened. And if it is a design flaw what happens to all of those valves in operation now?

With airliners we have had valves and stuff that fail. But for one case, the engine anti-ice valve which was failling all the time they investigate and re-design to make it right. I am just wondering how every backup stop for this thing has failed.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[quade 4]

Quote

I am just wondering how every backup stop for this thing has failed.

In part, because BP pushed past testing that would have let them know it would fail and in another case pushing past a failed battery. At least, that's my understanding I got from the 60 Minutes interview a while back.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

In part, because BP pushed past testing that would have let them know it would fail and in another case pushing past a failed battery.

And what agency is in charge of testing these things? Or does the company use whatever they think will work?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

In part, because BP pushed past testing that would have let them know it would fail and in another case pushing past a failed battery.

And what agency is in charge of testing these things? Or does the company use whatever they think will work?

Industry wide standard practices and the owners of the drilling rig.

It would be somewhat analogous to a tandem passenger demanding his tandem instructor to not bother with the gear check. That he just needs to get to the ground as quickly as possible. Ok, they might actually get to the ground pretty fast, but maybe not as intended.

Did you happen to see the 60 Minutes piece I'm talking about?

Part 1
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/video/?pid=0QTplOIQZdImAkzJqPt1LNLcjf_YDWcj&vs=homepage&play=true

Part 2
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/video/?pid=7KYpOXIbbFd9R_2YQBpQsdFhU3AD_YM7&vs=homepage&play=true

Might be worth a look if you haven't seen it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,111]

> If the apple is rotten, toss it out. If the entire branch is bad, chop it off.

Agreed. And spray for pests so you can kill off the disease that made it rotten to begin with. Otherwise you risk that happening with all the apples.

Corporations are efficient ways to make money, but that's about it. If we want them to do anything else they need to give them either have a legal or financial incentive. Legal is "go to jail if you show negligence" or any variation thereof. Financial means include:

-fines for noncompliance with standards
-fines for disasters (although that's a little late)
-costing systems (like a carbon tax or a 'spill tax')
-market based systems (like cap and trade)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

But the tree itself has been the foundation for most of what we call progress ever since the discovery of ways to control fire.

Not really. Only since the Renaissance and even then not really until the industrial revolution. Before that the VAST majority of improvements were due to governments. The common man was simply not educated nor financed enough to be able to do much on his own.

If you are talking about infrastructure, you are right. But I was talking about discovery and progress, most of which has been done by the private individual to improve their own quality of life.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[1969912 0]

Quote

Sounds like what I have read also. From what I understand the assembly at the bottom has 3 valves in it. Thats the way it sounds to me. I just cannot believe all modes of shutting it off had failed. It is a design flaw of what the hell happened. And if it is a design flaw what happens to all of those valves in operation now?

With airliners we have had valves and stuff that fail. But for one case, the engine anti-ice valve which was failling all the time they investigate and re-design to make it right. I am just wondering how every backup stop for this thing has failed.

The top of the following thread has a pretty good description of the BOP:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6533

Another forum with good technical stuff:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4551846015/page17/

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[jgoose71 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

In part, because BP pushed past testing that would have let them know it would fail and in another case pushing past a failed battery.

And what agency is in charge of testing these things? Or does the company use whatever they think will work?

Industry wide standard practices and the owners of the drilling rig.

It would be somewhat analogous to a tandem passenger demanding his tandem instructor to not bother with the gear check. That he just needs to get to the ground as quickly as possible. Ok, they might actually get to the ground pretty fast, but maybe not as intended.

Did you happen to see the 60 Minutes piece I'm talking about?

Part 1
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/video/?pid=0QTplOIQZdImAkzJqPt1LNLcjf_YDWcj&vs=homepage&play=true

Part 2
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/video/?pid=7KYpOXIbbFd9R_2YQBpQsdFhU3AD_YM7&vs=homepage&play=true

Might be worth a look if you haven't seen it.

I saw the 60 Minutes Piece. BP actually had everything in place that they needed. The problem was that pieces failed and then a BP exec ordered short cuts that were not in alignment with normal procedures. That error along with a seal that disintegrated on the well cap is the cause of all the problems, so it seems.

We need to drill because we are dependent on oil to power our country for right now. When short cuts are taken this is the result. The BP exec that caused all of this needs to be brought up on criminal negligence charges and made an example out of. We need to drill, but safety can not be ignored. I know that BP's profits are not going to be in danger any time soon so there was no need for them to take short cuts.

I hope that they do get saddled with the cost of the clean up. They can afford it and hopefully it will send a warning shot across the bow of the other oil companies who may consider taking similar risks.

Recap:
1. Criminal Negligence charges on exec that ordered to proceed knowing problems.

2. BP pay all costs for clean up.

3. Keep drilling.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything