Maternal Mortality

[mnealtx 0]

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Why aren't we calling it the maternal suicide rate? I find it difficult to blame a healthcare system for failing to fix a person who will not fix him or her self.

So when there's a 5'4", 220 pound diabetic tobacco user who is hypertensive and non-compliant with doctor's orders, one could suspect that this person is at a much higher risk of getting preeclampsic, having a large child and having to get a C-section delivery from which she'll have an extended healing process with higher risk of infection and death.

We blame a health care system for failing to fix people who break themselves and keep themselves broken. The third leading cause of death in the US (after heart disease and cancer) is medical treatment. A whole lot of this treatment is of people who could have simply avoided it in the first place by declining to live a lifestyle associated with the affluence of our society.

It's not about access the healthcare, John. Get rid of the fat, the tobacco users and the drunk - and get some patients who actually COMPLY with doctor's suggestions - and we'll have ourselves a much more manageable healthcare system.

Heck, I myself just made healthcare much less expensive by changing diet and eliminating my need for blood pressure meds. The medical system utilizes too many resources taking care of people who refuse to take care of themselves.

It's a good thing government is moving in to make sure that the consequences of self abuse are so much more affordable. Well, to those families making less than $250k $50k per year.

Of course, 38 other nations that rank ahead of the US don't have fat people, poorly educated people, self-destructive people, drunks and smokers.

Oh wait, YES THEY DO.

What they have that is different is a better SYSTEM of providing health care.

Now, like all the other threads, you just have to PROVE that is what makes the difference.

Oh, wait - you CAN'T. That's why you keep falling back on lame posts like this.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,147]

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Why aren't we calling it the maternal suicide rate? I find it difficult to blame a healthcare system for failing to fix a person who will not fix him or her self.

So when there's a 5'4", 220 pound diabetic tobacco user who is hypertensive and non-compliant with doctor's orders, one could suspect that this person is at a much higher risk of getting preeclampsic, having a large child and having to get a C-section delivery from which she'll have an extended healing process with higher risk of infection and death.

We blame a health care system for failing to fix people who break themselves and keep themselves broken. The third leading cause of death in the US (after heart disease and cancer) is medical treatment. A whole lot of this treatment is of people who could have simply avoided it in the first place by declining to live a lifestyle associated with the affluence of our society.

It's not about access the healthcare, John. Get rid of the fat, the tobacco users and the drunk - and get some patients who actually COMPLY with doctor's suggestions - and we'll have ourselves a much more manageable healthcare system.

Heck, I myself just made healthcare much less expensive by changing diet and eliminating my need for blood pressure meds. The medical system utilizes too many resources taking care of people who refuse to take care of themselves.

It's a good thing government is moving in to make sure that the consequences of self abuse are so much more affordable. Well, to those families making less than $250k $50k per year.

Of course, 38 other nations that rank ahead of the US don't have fat people, poorly educated people, self-destructive people, drunks and smokers.

Oh wait, YES THEY DO.

What they have that is different is a better SYSTEM of providing health care.

Now, like all the other threads, you just have to PROVE that is what makes the difference.

Oh, wait - you CAN'T. That's why you keep falling back on lame posts like this.

Irony score 10/10

Lawrocket must first PROVE that obesity, smoking, etc. are unique to the USA, and put it in 38th place.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Why aren't we calling it the maternal suicide rate? I find it difficult to blame a healthcare system for failing to fix a person who will not fix him or her self.

So when there's a 5'4", 220 pound diabetic tobacco user who is hypertensive and non-compliant with doctor's orders, one could suspect that this person is at a much higher risk of getting preeclampsic, having a large child and having to get a C-section delivery from which she'll have an extended healing process with higher risk of infection and death.

We blame a health care system for failing to fix people who break themselves and keep themselves broken. The third leading cause of death in the US (after heart disease and cancer) is medical treatment. A whole lot of this treatment is of people who could have simply avoided it in the first place by declining to live a lifestyle associated with the affluence of our society.

It's not about access the healthcare, John. Get rid of the fat, the tobacco users and the drunk - and get some patients who actually COMPLY with doctor's suggestions - and we'll have ourselves a much more manageable healthcare system.

Heck, I myself just made healthcare much less expensive by changing diet and eliminating my need for blood pressure meds. The medical system utilizes too many resources taking care of people who refuse to take care of themselves.

It's a good thing government is moving in to make sure that the consequences of self abuse are so much more affordable. Well, to those families making less than $250k $50k per year.

Of course, 38 other nations that rank ahead of the US don't have fat people, poorly educated people, self-destructive people, drunks and smokers.

Oh wait, YES THEY DO.

What they have that is different is a better SYSTEM of providing health care.

Now, like all the other threads, you just have to PROVE that is what makes the difference.

Oh, wait - you CAN'T. That's why you keep falling back on lame posts like this.

Irony score 10/10

Lame score - incalculable.

You really should quit while you're way, WAY behind.

Almost 1/3 of all births in the US are by Caesarian section (~32% in 2007, a 48% increase since 1996).

From the LA Times:

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The C-section, now used to deliver 30% of American babies, is such a norm these days that, in some places, doctors and women have taken to calling it "C-birth" or even just "having a 'C.'" Pet names aside, the procedure is major surgery, and although it saves lives when performed as an emergency intervention, it causes more harm than good when overused. Here's why: Caesareans are inherently riskier than normal, vaginal birth. They also lead to repeat caesareans. And repeat caesareans carry even greater risks.

Placenta accreta is one of them. The placenta embeds into the uterine scar from a previous surgery, causing a catastrophic hemorrhage at the time of delivery. Most women with placenta accreta lose their uteri; as many as 1 in 15 bleed to death. In 1970, accretas were so rare that most obstetricians never encountered one in their career. Today, according to a University of Chicago study, the incidence may be as high as 1 in 500 births. And that is all because of caesareans and repeat caesareans.

Obesity plays a part as well because obese women are more likely to have health problems that make a caesarean more likely, and more likely to suffer surgical complications. Still, it all comes back to the "C," which could easily stand for "culprit."

From Californiawatch:

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Today, doctors face a condition called placenta accreta, where the placenta grows into the scar left by a previous C-section. In surgery, doctors must find and suture a web of twisted placental vessels snaking into the patient’s abdomen, which can hemorrhage alarming amounts of blood. Often, doctors must remove the uterus.

Main said this complication from C-sections has increased eight-to-10 fold in the past decade. Nonetheless, most women survive the ordeal. The point, says Catherine Camacho, deputy director of the state’s Center for Family Health, is that the rise in deaths is indicative of a larger problem.

“For every maternal death, there are 10 near misses; for every near miss, there are 10 severe morbidity cases (such as hysterectomy, hemorrhage, or infection), and for every severe morbidity case, there is another 10 morbidity cases related to childbirth,” Camacho wrote in an e-mail.

From CDC:

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The leading causes of pregnancy-related death were embolism (20%), hemorrhage (17%), and pregnancy-induced hypertension (16%)

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

Well, at least you looked up the Cesarian thing that I'd hinted at earlier.

Bonus points for that.

It's something that is significantly different than most industrialized countries AND is something that is an unintended consequence of the current healthcare system.

Patients and Doctors like them because they are more "convenient" and can be scheduled. As I recall there's also something goofy about the insurance industry and malpractice involved in their growing preference.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's something that is significantly different than most industrialized countries AND is something that is an unintended consequence of the current healthcare system.

Patients and Doctors like them because they are more "convenient" and can be scheduled. As I recall there's also something goofy about the insurance industry and malpractice involved in their growing preference.

When people talk about how practicers have incentive to take the more complicated,higher billing approach, this is front and center. That said, I'm surprised to hear it's only ~33%. A friend of mine spends a considerable amount of her time advocating against C sections, for VBAC (vaginal birth after c), and against the use of pain killers. But ultimately the challenge for her is that expecting moms seem to be just as willing partners in this choice.

Kallend, he's kicking your ass left and right on this one. Are you going to respond to any of Mike's postings with actual evidence, or will you continue to hide in generalities?

"Other countries have fat people too." Is this as good as it gets? We know that the US leads or ties with a couple others for the highest percentage of obese and morbidly obese people. How can you dismiss that away? No, your only course there is to argue that being overweight has no bearing on the outcome of pregnancy. (good luck)

[DARK 0]

you guys are funny

this is one of the rare threads were almost every poster is making at least one valid point

the problem is you are so blinded by either your 'love for your country and its system' or your 'love for your country and its potential' that you refuse to acknowledge the universal parts of eachothers arguments

america has a decent health care system

for people who can afford to be fully insured it is a very very good health care system

for everyone else im yet to be convinced

obesity and laziness are first world global problems which come hand in hand with the technological progress. america appears to be particularly affected by obesity. this will affect its ranking as far as liffe expectancy goes etc.

what the people who say 'oh well we would be number one if we didnt have fat people' wont accept is that obesity or lack of obesity is part of your healthcare system. your healthcare dosnt start at the gp or when you arrive in the emergency room it statrts at home and in school when you are being educated by the people most important to you

what the people who say 'obesity is a world wide problem' wont accept is that it is in fact not as much as a problem in other countries as in yours. at a certain point personal choice comes into it and at the moment more people in your country are choosing to be unhealthy and obese than in other countries, this will affect you figures

this does not excuse your figures

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Of course, 38 other nations that rank ahead of the US don't have fat people, poorly educated people, self-destructive people, drunks and smokers.

Oh wait, YES THEY DO.

But the United States is NUMBER ONE in obese people amongst first world countries.

US: 30.6%
UK: 23%
Australia: 21.3%
Canada: 14.3%
France: 9.4%
Japan: 3.2%

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What they have that is different is a better SYSTEM of providing health care.

Correlation does not imply causality.

They also have higher population densities and gas taxes which make taking mass transit and walking the final fraction of a mile both more viable and less expensive than the American driving habit.

Besides, we have problems with Social Security funding. It's better when people die before they can claim the benefits they're legally entitled to.

[kallend 2,147]

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Of course, 38 other nations that rank ahead of the US don't have fat people, poorly educated people, self-destructive people, drunks and smokers.

Oh wait, YES THEY DO.

But the United States is NUMBER ONE in obese people amongst first world countries.

US: 30.6%
UK: 23%
Australia: 21.3%
Canada: 14.3%
France: 9.4%
Japan: 3.2%

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What they have that is different is a better SYSTEM of providing health care.

Correlation does not imply causality.

They also have higher population densities and gas taxes which make taking mass transit and walking the final fraction of a mile both more viable and less expensive than the American driving habit.

Besides, we have problems with Social Security funding. It's better when people die before they can claim the benefits they're legally entitled to.

SMOKING, % of population that smokes:

US - 24%
EU - 28%

Alcohol consumption litres/year/adult

US 8.6
UK 11.8
France 11.4
Germany 12.0
Switzerland 10.8
Denmark 11.7

Where is your PROOF that only obesity is the cause of maternal mortality and that smoking and alcohol aren't?

You continue to blame the victim and ignore the elephant in the room. The biggest single difference between the US with its poor showing and other industrial nations doing far better is the healthcare delivery SYSTEM. Do you even understand the concept of a SYSTEM?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[winsor 236]

You continue to blame the victim and ignore the elephant in the room. The biggest single difference between the US with its poor showing and other industrial nations doing far better is the healthcare delivery SYSTEM. Do you even understand the concept of a SYSTEM?

[timmyfitz 0]

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Why aren't we calling it the maternal suicide rate? I find it difficult to blame a healthcare system for failing to fix a person who will not fix him or her self.

So when there's a 5'4", 220 pound diabetic tobacco user who is hypertensive and non-compliant with doctor's orders, one could suspect that this person is at a much higher risk of getting preeclampsic, having a large child and having to get a C-section delivery from which she'll have an extended healing process with higher risk of infection and death.

We blame a health care system for failing to fix people who break themselves and keep themselves broken. The third leading cause of death in the US (after heart disease and cancer) is medical treatment. A whole lot of this treatment is of people who could have simply avoided it in the first place by declining to live a lifestyle associated with the affluence of our society.

It's not about access the healthcare, John. Get rid of the fat, the tobacco users and the drunk - and get some patients who actually COMPLY with doctor's suggestions - and we'll have ourselves a much more manageable healthcare system.

Heck, I myself just made healthcare much less expensive by changing diet and eliminating my need for blood pressure meds. The medical system utilizes too many resources taking care of people who refuse to take care of themselves.

It's a good thing government is moving in to make sure that the consequences of self abuse are so much more affordable. Well, to those families making less than $250k $50k per year.

Of course, 38 other nations that rank ahead of the US don't have fat people, poorly educated people, self-destructive people, drunks and smokers.

Oh wait, YES THEY DO.

What they have that is different is a better SYSTEM of providing health care.

Now, like all the other threads, you just have to PROVE that is what makes the difference.

Oh, wait - you CAN'T. That's why you keep falling back on lame posts like this.

Irony score 10/10

You said irony score. You win.

[lawrocket 3]

We lead the world in fat mothers.

We lead the world in diabetes.

We lead the world in diseases of affluence. So when we lead the world in obese mothers we'll lead the world in pregnancy complications.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,147]

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We lead the world in fat mothers.

We lead the world in diabetes.

We lead the world in diseases of affluence. So when we lead the world in obese mothers we'll lead the world in pregnancy complications.

We don't lead the world in smokers. We don't lead the world in alcoholism. Try again.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[christelsabine 1]

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We don't lead the world in alcoholism.
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No, that's us. What a shame - no wonder, Switzerland closed its borders ....

On that, I need a glass of cold French white wine, right now

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kelpdiver 2]

What happened to 'human nature is the same everywhere?'

Now at least you've accepted there are differences, and are trying to hunt for all the potential factors that should favor US mothers.

That said, alcohol is one of the weakest ones, as expectant mothers can and typically do stop drinking. Smoking is a more significant one given the trouble in quitting, though you need female smoking rates.

[futuredivot 0]

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We lead the world in fat mothers.

We lead the world in diabetes.

We lead the world in diseases of affluence. So when we lead the world in obese mothers we'll lead the world in pregnancy complications.

We don't lead the world in smokers. We don't lead the world in alcoholism. Try again.

I don't think we lead the world in little pink daffodils either if you're just trying to make a list of things Lawrocket didn't mention.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[remibond 0]

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We don't lead the world in alcoholism.
....

No, that's us. What a shame - no wonder, Switzerland closed its borders ....

On that, I need a glass of cold French white wine, right now

Barely

Wow, I didn't realise til now how much students actually drink compared to 'normal' people. No wonder I can see two bar/pubs from my window.

[kallend 2,147]

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We lead the world in fat mothers.

We lead the world in diabetes.

We lead the world in diseases of affluence. So when we lead the world in obese mothers we'll lead the world in pregnancy complications.

We don't lead the world in smokers. We don't lead the world in alcoholism. Try again.

I don't think we lead the world in little pink daffodils either if you're just trying to make a list of things Lawrocket didn't mention.

Actually he mentioned both in an earlier post. Please try to pay attention.

I guess he "forgot" to mention them again when he realized that the data don't support his position.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,147]

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What happened to 'human nature is the same everywhere?'

Now at least you've accepted there are differences, and are trying to hunt for all the potential factors that should favor US mothers.

.

I believe forum rules allow me to rebut unproven claims made by lawrocket.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I believe forum rules allow me to rebut unproven claims made by lawrocket.

forum rules let you back pedal as much as you like!

[kallend 2,147]

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I believe forum rules allow me to rebut unproven claims made by lawrocket.

forum rules let you back pedal as much as you like!

Go ahead then if you must.

My position is unchanged - lawrocket has not proven that anything related to human nature is responsible for the abysmal performance of the USA in various health related indicators, in fact, two of the conditions he mentions (smoking and alcohol) are contrary to his claim.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PLFXpert 0]

Agree...and with everything else you said.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.