Why is it considered wrong . . .

[SivaGanesha 2]

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So they were able to cut costs by hiring illegal workers. Who do you think should be gone after -- the single dealer or the many people who buy from the dealer?

I believe that existing laws should be followed. It's not a crime to buy from the dealer. It is crime, however, for the dealer to knowingly accept fake documents from an illegal worker and it is a crime for the illegal worker to present fake documents.

The problem is that it has, in the past, been hard to prove that the employer knowingly accepted fake documents, and illegal workers seem to have a way of slipping through the fingers of the authorities even when a serious attempt is made to enforce the law.

The solution is the E-Verify system which checks whether documents presented are valid. It was already mandatory in Arizona even before this new law was passed, and should be phased in to become mandatory over the next few years at a national level.

Although I strongly oppose illegal immigration, and am currently against the idea of any "earned legalization" for current illegals, I might warm up to the idea of legalizing any illegals already here if I felt the law was going to be enforced going forward.

But it would require a change in the cultural atmosphere for me to support this. It would need to be understood that--to give an example--just as it is no longer kosher to smoke in most indoor public locations, it is no longer kosher to violate the borders of a strong nation like the USA.

When that understanding is accepted by the vast majority of people of all parties, races, etc., then--and only then--can or should we talk about what we can do to help the people already here become legal.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Gawain 0]

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The fact that the hispanicgun-owning population is nervous is indicative of acknowledging the problem while being perfectly willing to sit back and let it happen.

Does this shed a different light on the discussion?

Blues,
Dave

I don't know, but I think you and I could agree that your statement is not universal. The flames being fanned, such as, "Getting detained while on your way to get an ice-cream..."...certainly do not help the situation in terms of civil unrest.

Legal gun-owners want current gun control laws enforced without our own rights being infringed, and take offense when people say we should tolerate some inconvenience for the greater good. As a legal gun-owner, I empathize with those legal immigrants who want their rights similarly uninfringed. On either subject, I have little respect for those who consider the legal rights of others as expendable or less important than their own.

Blues,
Dave

Arizona is an open-carry state, correct? What is the incidence rate of random requests to see a gun registration by law enforcement (assuming that one is required for a handgun in Arizona). I'm going to guess the answer is near zero. What is the incidence rate when that law enforcement officer is engaged in other legal contact (like a traffic stop)?

By law, legal-non-citizen-residents are required to carry their green-card at all times, and are expected to produce it upon request. How ofter are there random contacts with people on the street to ask for a green card? What is that incidence rate?

Gun control is not a very good parallel to illegal immigration. The reality is that gun control has better cooperation between state and federal agencies than illegal immigration does. It also has better cooperation between citizens and state/federal agencies compared to this cluster of a immigration system.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andy9o8 2]

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How ofter are there random contacts with people on the street to ask for a green card? What is that incidence rate?

Arizona clearly aims to find out. Stay tuned.

[billvon 3,088]

>When I started in 1990 the entry level pay was on average 13-14 dollars
>per hour. When I left in 2000, the average starting wage was 9-10 an
>hour.

This is good news for manufacturers and "made in the USA" advocates. Reducing average wages is the only way that manufacturing jobs can be kept in the US.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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This is good news for manufacturers and "made in the USA" advocates. Reducing average wages is the only way that manufacturing jobs can be kept in the US.

I never understood how people want both top rates for manufacturing labour and bottom rates for products on the shelves......

[christelsabine 1]

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>When I started in 1990 the entry level pay was on average 13-14 dollars
>per hour. When I left in 2000, the average starting wage was 9-10 an
>hour.

This is good news for manufacturers and "made in the USA" advocates. Reducing average wages is the only way that manufacturing jobs can be kept in the US.

Wow. You should come to Germany, quickly ....

(Not kidding)

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[turtlespeed 226]

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So they were able to cut costs by hiring illegal workers. Who do you think should be gone after -- the single dealer or the many people who buy from the dealer?

Wendy P.

The end user of the product had no idea who was putting in the furniture. The installation companies that installed the furniture knew for sure and they should be penalized.

AT least penalized financially. Preferably, also penalized criminally.

Either way it's still the feds doing a piss-poor job of enforcement.

Here is the wording of the federal law:

8 U.S.C. § 1304 : US Code - Section 1304: Forms for registration and fingerprinting

. . . (e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties
Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times
carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate
of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to
him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails
to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined
not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or
both.

Doesn't do a whole lot of good if its not enforced, does it?
Sorry it is inconvenient, but that is a necessary price you have to pay if you want to immigrate.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[popsjumper 2]

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. . . to agree with enforcing laws regarding ILLEGAL immigrants?

Because some people NEED something to whine about and this is just one more opportunity for them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jclalor 12]

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>When I started in 1990 the entry level pay was on average 13-14 dollars
>per hour. When I left in 2000, the average starting wage was 9-10 an
>hour.

This is good news for manufacturers and "made in the USA" advocates. Reducing average wages is the only way that manufacturing jobs can be kept in the US.

The above job mentioned was not about a manufacturing job but a service job. Just like all the trades, the wages have shrunk or stayed stagnent due to the influx of cheap labor.

The democratic parrty, who I thought was for the working class, has sure let us down.

[davjohns 1]

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Simply due to the fact that 90% of illegal immigrants come from from one racial group.

This makes you a racist pig.

I laughed out loud when I saw this. I can only hope it is someone stirring the pot.

If the majority of crime is committed by minorities, are all criminal laws racist? Should we do away with them?

In Mexico, most laws are broken by Mexicans. I guess Mexico should do away with all laws.

It's a logical tool called reductio ad absurdum. Look it up.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[redlegphi 0]

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So they were able to cut costs by hiring illegal workers. Who do you think should be gone after -- the single dealer or the many people who buy from the dealer?

Wendy P.

And this is why immigration reform never goes anywhere. The status quo (illegal immigrants able to get into the country and unable to get legalized) drives labor costs down, which is exactly what the corporations want. They don't even have to get a bill passed. They just have to ensure any bill that does come up dies slowly in committee.

[Andy9o8 2]

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So they were able to cut costs by hiring illegal workers. Who do you think should be gone after -- the single dealer or the many people who buy from the dealer?

And this is why immigration reform never goes anywhere. The status quo (illegal immigrants able to get into the country and unable to get legalized) drives labor costs down, which is exactly what the corporations want. They don't even have to get a bill passed. They just have to ensure any bill that does come up dies slowly in committee.

Ding! Bullseye.

[airdvr 210]

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So they were able to cut costs by hiring illegal workers. Who do you think should be gone after -- the single dealer or the many people who buy from the dealer?

And this is why immigration reform never goes anywhere. The status quo (illegal immigrants able to get into the country and unable to get legalized) drives labor costs down, which is exactly what the corporations want. They don't even have to get a bill passed. They just have to ensure any bill that does come up dies slowly in committee.

Ding! Bullseye.

http://wehirealiens.com/index.asp

Interesting find. If you believe this site there are plenty hiring illegals.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Andy9o8 2]

Hm?

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http://wehirealiens.com/index.asp

Oh, it's an "anti" site. I thought it was a job board, like CareerBuilders. That, or something sci-fi.

[kallend 2,115]

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Hm?

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http://wehirealiens.com/index.asp

Oh, it's an "anti" site. I thought it was a job board, like CareerBuilders. That, or something sci-fi.

Are you "alleging" it's an "anti" site?

Interesting misuse of quotation marks on that site. I guess English is their second language.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[countzero 7]

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From what I see in the media and some of the reactions I have seen personally, it is considered wrong to enforce the laws concerning illegal immigration. WHy is that?

because the media is in bed with and being used by the politicians who want to use amnesty to buy votes. and they are using the race card because the people who want to enforce the law that the federal government it's are messing things up for the feds.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[turtlespeed 226]

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From what I see in the media and some of the reactions I have seen personally, it is considered wrong to enforce the laws concerning illegal immigration. WHy is that?

because the media is in bed with and being used by the politicians who want to use amnesty to buy votes. and they are using the race card because the people who want to enforce the law that the federal government it's are messing things up for the feds.

I see. And is it also you supposition that they would not have the votes if they didn't do this?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun