Immigration Advocates Rising Up in Anger Across the Nation Over New Arizona Law

[rushmc 23]

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remember rove and ACORN...

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Rove and the Republican chieftains were working nationwide to whip up anti-immigrant hysteria with public busts of illegal voters, even though there were none.

"They wanted some splashy pre-election indictments," Iglesias told me. The former prosecutor, himself a Republican, paid the price when he stood up to this vicious attack on citizenship.

But Secretary of State Brewer followed the Rove plan to a T. The weapon she used to slice the Arizona voter rolls was a 2004 law, known as "Prop 200," which required proof of citizenship to register. It is important to see the Republicans' latest legislative horror show, sanctioning cops to stop residents and prove citizenship, as just one more step in the party's desperate plan to impede Mexican-Americans from marching to the ballot box.

http://www.alternet.org/story/146657/the_real_reason_why_arizona_passed_such_harsh_immigration_laws

I believe everyone should prove citizenship and home address AND voter registration to vote

But if that happens there may not be any Dems elected ever again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AndyBoyd 0]

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This piece blatantly lies about what the AZ law says.

The AZ law authorizes cops to ask for proof of citizenship only if there is reasonable suspicion to believe the person is an illegal alien. That is: if there is reasonable suspicion the person is a criminal, you get to ask for some evidence that they are not. This has been the law since the constitution was enacted. It is very clear that the cops can not just ask someone for documentation for no reason.

The piece quoted above lies. In my mind, that makes their arguments suspect even when they may appear valid.

Thanks for the synopsis of the law. I still haven't seen an answer to Dave's question, what would give rise to reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal immigrant? Especially if the cops can't use race or natinal origin. What would they use to make that determination? And what does "lawful contact" mean? Can a cop detain a victim of a crime, say a mugging or even a rape, in order to determine the individual's immigration status? Suppose someone asks a cop for directions? Is that individual now subject to interrogation by the cop regarding his or her immigration status? Is this really how we want the cops to act in America?

[rehmwa 2]

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They will need several thousand more cops if they are to ask everyone they have contact with. I think cops have much better things to do.

If you only have one cop - and he asks everyone he comes in contact with to see their license.........


It'll still be one cop.

or is this some kind of quantum/time warp thing

that brings a thought - If Chuck Norris was able to time travel and fight himself, he'd win.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[davjohns 1]

It's not that difficult. I stopped two hispanic males one night for driving without lights. No license. No ID. No English. No SSN.

I had reasonable suspicion.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[dreamdancer 0]

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It's not that difficult. I stopped two hispanic males one night for driving without lights. No license. No ID. No English. No SSN.

I had reasonable suspicion.

and this was before this new law?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rehmwa 2]

Clearly at night, without any lights, you noted they were hispanic and that's why you pulled them over?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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It's not that difficult. I stopped two hispanic males one night for driving without lights. No license. No ID. No English. No SSN.

I had reasonable suspicion.

and this was before this new law?

as I understand it - before the new law he was restricted from informing immigration - after - he was required to inform immigration

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

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The AZ law authorizes cops to ask for proof of citizenship only if there is reasonable suspicion to believe the person is an illegal alien. That is: if there is reasonable suspicion the person is a criminal, you get to ask for some evidence that they are not. This has been the law since the constitution was enacted. It is very clear that the cops can not just ask someone for documentation for no reason.

But you're still dancing around what constitutes "reasonable suspicion to believe the person is an illegal alien." You say "the cops can not just ask someone for documentation for no reason." Well, they do have a reason, and you know fully well what that reason is: the guy looks like a spic. So, the cop strikes up a conversation with him under some pretense if he's on foot, or pulls him over for "weaving in his lane" or something if he's in a car, then he hears a Spanish accent, then he ID's him. Why are you pretending that this is not exactly what occurs? Do you really think a cop anywhere is going to do the same thing to an Irish-looking guy because he suspects the guy might be an illegal from Belfast? The Urban Institute estimates that between 65,000 and 75,000 undocumented Canadians currently live in the United States. (Beth Slovic Bslovic (February 20, 2008). "He’s an... Illegal Eh-lien". Willamette Week.) Do cops use the same pretense to ID every pasty white guy who mangles an "O" or wears a Canadiens t-shirt?

[rehmwa 2]

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Do cops use the same pretense to ID every pasty white guy who mangles an "O" or wears a Canadiens t-shirt?

Oh, please,please please - if only they would.......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

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Do cops use the same pretense to ID every pasty white guy who mangles an "O" or wears a Canadiens t-shirt?

Oh, please,please please - if only they would.......

Well, they did manage to heave-ho at least one CanuckInUSA, and thank God for that.

[AndyBoyd 0]

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It's not that difficult. I stopped two hispanic males one night for driving without lights. No license. No ID. No English. No SSN.

I had reasonable suspicion.

Fair enough. Hard to argue with that example. I suspect, though, that things will not be quite so clear in the majority of situations, and there will be problems as cops as well as courts will struggle to define RS in the immigration context.

[Andy9o8 2]

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It's not that difficult. I stopped two hispanic males one night for driving without lights. No license. No ID. No English. No SSN.

I had reasonable suspicion.

I agree. Now let's hypothetically change one fact: let's say they each had California DLs. Reasonable suspicion to detain and verify?

[SivaGanesha 2]

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...Do you really think a cop anywhere is going to do the same thing to an Irish-looking guy because he suspects the guy might be an illegal from Belfast?...

Yes, in fact. I once knew a white male from the UK who was arrested at one of the Border Patrol checkpoints near San Diego and then deported. He wasn't, from a race or national origin perspective, the typical illegal alien one would find near San Diego, but he was nevertheless an illegal alien, and justice is blind as to race and/or national origin.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

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they should also be made to wear little yellow stars...

Just to get all the facts out...Hitler was an illegal alien. He was from Austria and illegally in Germany. Had Weimar Germany had a legal tool like the Arizona law on its books, Hitler's ass would have been deported back to Austria where it belonged following his Beer Hall Putsch, and Hitler would never have come to power in Germany.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[remibond 0]

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...Do you really think a cop anywhere is going to do the same thing to an Irish-looking guy because he suspects the guy might be an illegal from Belfast?...

Yes, in fact. I once knew a white male from the UK who was arrested at one of the Border Patrol checkpoints near San Diego and then deported. He wasn't, from a race or national origin perspective, the typical illegal alien one would find near San Diego, but he was nevertheless an illegal alien, and justice is blind as to race and/or national origin.

I wasn't going to get involved, but really?

[remibond 0]

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they should also be made to wear little yellow stars...

Just to get all the facts out...Hitler was an illegal alien. He was from Austria and illegally in Germany. Had Weimar Germany had a legal tool like the Arizona law on its books, Hitler's ass would have been deported back to Austria where it belonged following his Beer Hall Putsch, and Hitler would never have come to power in Germany.

So is your point that unless all illegal immigrants are deported, Arizona will turn into the new 3rd (4th) Reich? Or was it more a look at the irony of Hitler persecuting people in a country that he wasn't originally of?

[Andy9o8 2]

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...Do you really think a cop anywhere is going to do the same thing to an Irish-looking guy because he suspects the guy might be an illegal from Belfast?...

Yes, in fact. I once knew a white male from the UK who was arrested at one of the Border Patrol checkpoints near San Diego and then deported. He wasn't, from a race or national origin perspective, the typical illegal alien one would find near San Diego, but he was nevertheless an illegal alien, and justice is blind as to race and/or national origin.

First of all, that was at a border checkpoint, not just out on the street, which is the context I'm referring to. Second, any adult who who genuinely believes that "justice is blind as to race and/or national origin" is gullible in the extreme, and I have a bridge to sell him.

[Andy9o8 2]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/29/arizona.immigration.lawsuit/index.html?hpt=T2

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Arizona police officer sues over immigration law

CNN) -- A police officer in Tucson, Arizona, asks that local law enforcement be exempt from enforcing the state's new immigration law in a lawsuit filed in federal court on Thursday.

Officer Martin H. Escobar claims in the suit that the law will "seriously impede law enforcement investigations and facilitate the successful commission of crimes."

He also says there are no "race-neutral criteria or basis to suspect or identify who is lawfully in the United States," including a person's proximity to the Mexican border, linguistic characteristics and capabilities, skin color, clothing worn or the type of vehicle driven.

The law, signed by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer on April 23, allows police to ask anyone for proof of legal U.S. residency. Brewer and others who support the law have said it does not involve racial profiling or any other illegal acts.

"Racial profiling is illegal," Brewer said after signing the bill. "It is illegal in America, and it's certainly illegal in Arizona."

[SivaGanesha 2]

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First of all, that was at a border checkpoint, not just out on the street, which is the context I'm referring to. Second, any adult who who genuinely believes that "justice is blind as to race and/or national origin" is gullible in the extreme, and I have a bridge to sell him.

It was at a Border Patrol checkpoint, which is not the same thing as a border checkpoint. There are a number of them at various locations within 100 miles of the Mexican border. Most people are just waved through with no questioning at all. This might lead one to the initial conclusion that they make the initial decision to question someone based on my race, but the experience of my acquaintance, a white male, proves that it is more complex than that.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Andy9o8 2]

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First of all, that was at a border checkpoint, not just out on the street, which is the context I'm referring to. Second, any adult who who genuinely believes that "justice is blind as to race and/or national origin" is gullible in the extreme, and I have a bridge to sell him.

It was at a Border Patrol checkpoint, which is not the same thing as a border checkpoint. There are a number of them at various locations within 100 miles of the Mexican border. Most people are just waved through with no questioning at all. This might lead one to the initial conclusion that they make the initial decision to question someone based on my race, but the experience of my acquaintance, a white male, proves that it is more complex than that.

There's no doubt that at a checkpoint everyone will be subject to increased scrutiny, especially those who don't have perfect documents or perfect North American accents. Again, that's not the issue or concern here - the concern is who is going to get stopped out on the street away from the special checkpoints, and on what basis.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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So is your point that unless all illegal immigrants are deported, Arizona will turn into the new 3rd (4th) Reich?

Certainly all illegal immigrants who have been convicted of a crime above and beyond their illegal entry to the country, as Hitler was, should be deported. If the person's entry to the country was illegal to begin with, and they commit other crimes after arriving, surely even the most liberal defender of their 'rights' must concede that at some point they've overstayed their welcome?

People like Hitler are, fortunately, rare, so the chance of them actually rising to the level of evil of a Hitler is, thankfully, still low--but the risk is there and clearly increases the more crimes they commit, so why take the risk if they weren't welcome here to begin with?

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Or was it more a look at the irony of Hitler persecuting people in a country that he wasn't originally of?

No this wasn't my point since he soon annexed his native Austria, as well as many other countries, and persecuted people pretty much everywhere he could control. The irony is more in the fact that his rise to power came in a country that came close to kicking him out.

The other irony is that people are comparing this law to Nazi Germany whereas in fact the last best chance to stop Hitler before his rise to power would have been if Weimar Germany had had a similar law after the Beer Hall Putsch. At that point his charisma and danger was known but he didn't yet have the huge crowds behind him--he was still stoppable. Once he started getting massive crowds backed up by his thugs he was almost unstoppable in his rise to power.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

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There's no doubt that at a checkpoint everyone will be subject to increased scrutiny, especially those who don't have perfect documents or perfect North American accents. Again, that's not the issue or concern here - the concern is who is going to get stopped out on the street away from the special checkpoints, and on what basis.

I still get the sense that you aren't familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints.

At a Border Patrol checkpoint, most people are waved through with no documents being shown and with no words being spoken. A decision is made to question a few based solely on what the officer sees.

Based on that, one might be tempted to conclude that color of skin would be the primary consideration in deciding who to question.

However, the experience of my acquaintance shows that they use more sophisticated criteria.

Whether those criteria are fair or similarly result in some people being unfairly singled out for hassling, I do not know. What I do know is that it is not based solely on race. If it were, my acquaintance would not have been caught.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Andy9o8 2]

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I still get the sense that you aren't familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints.

And I still get the sense that you're ignoring the context of the thread and my posts. I'm not going to re-state it for a fifth time.

[dreamdancer 0]

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they should also be made to wear little yellow stars...

Just to get all the facts out...Hitler was an illegal alien. He was from Austria and illegally in Germany. Had Weimar Germany had a legal tool like the Arizona law on its books, Hitler's ass would have been deported back to Austria where it belonged following his Beer Hall Putsch, and Hitler would never have come to power in Germany.

but hitler wasn't mexican - he was white
(meanwhile you collect all those brown people together and we'll concentrate them somewhere safe)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Skyrad 0]

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Publice furor is brewing because the ACLU is upset and there are some dark skinned people who will surely be affected?

Complete horeshit. Standard.

Americans are moving more towards strict feelings on immigration.

Maybe if the USA had a fair tax system and more people pulled their weight then people would be so worried about more people coming into the country. After all its not like your short of space.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca