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billvon 3,111
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>That report was for 2003 and it compared the cost vs gas fired plants
>(remember what natrual gas prices were doing then?)
Yep. Fortunately, even when gas (or coal, or oil) prices go up - wind won't. Which is why the smarter companies out there are investing in it.
>(remember what natrual gas prices were doing then?)
Yep. Fortunately, even when gas (or coal, or oil) prices go up - wind won't. Which is why the smarter companies out there are investing in it.
winsor 236
QuoteQuoteQuoteCap and trade treats carbon emmissions as a commodity. It's like freaking orange juice. You want more, you buy more from others who want less. It is as pure as capitalism can get.
Who hands out the credits? The govt? Thats not capitalism. Thats just another way for the Govt to take our money and spend more in the form of another tax. That is NOT capitalism!
It works for SO2, and Reagan was as capitalist as they come.
Explain why it's good for SO2 and not for CO2. Is it simply the right's hatred for Al Gore?
A) Reagan may have been a lot of things, but mathematically literate was not one of them. I am also not sure he could have defined capitalism if tasked to do so.
B) Many of the policies that Reagan put into place were economically disastrous in the long run.
C) Al Gore is a moron. He could say something that is right on the money, or is completely wrong, and have no way to tell the difference.
D) Whether or not CO2 is a problem, Cap & Trade is a scam.
rushmc 23
You really do like playing on the edges dont youQuote>That report was for 2003 and it compared the cost vs gas fired plants
>(remember what natrual gas prices were doing then?)
Yep. Fortunately, even when gas (or coal, or oil) prices go up - wind won't. Which is why the smarter companies out there are investing in it.
Smarter companies? Well, maybe. You make is seem that they do if for profit reasons. That is for the most part not the case. Regulatory boards have been infested with tree hugger types and to a level these wind farms are becoming a necessary evil for utilities to survive and get along with government boards.
Second, the millions in tax incentives and three as a CYA should cap n tax become law. A wind portfolio will offset the carbon tax for those who have coal generation
Factully what you said is true but, it is highly misleading on your part
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
billvon 3,111
>You really do like playing on the edges dont you
Yep. We call it the "leading edge" around here.
>Smarter companies? Well, maybe. You make is seem that they do if
>for profit reasons.
Of course they do; that's why most companies do things.
>Factully what you said is true but, it is highly misleading on your part . . .
So do you think that gas, coal and oil prices will drop with time? If you really believe that, short oil futures and retire wealthy.
Yep. We call it the "leading edge" around here.
>Smarter companies? Well, maybe. You make is seem that they do if
>for profit reasons.
Of course they do; that's why most companies do things.
>Factully what you said is true but, it is highly misleading on your part . . .
So do you think that gas, coal and oil prices will drop with time? If you really believe that, short oil futures and retire wealthy.
rushmc 23
Quote>You really do like playing on the edges dont you
Yep. We call it the "leading edge" around here.
>Smarter companies? Well, maybe. You make is seem that they do if
>for profit reasons.
Of course they do; that's why most companies do things.
>Factully what you said is true but, it is highly misleading on your part . . .
So do you think that gas, coal and oil prices will drop with time? If you really believe that, short oil futures and retire wealthy.
You twist my meaning because you cant refute the point directly
Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is distroted by government regulation. Period
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Quote
Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is distroted by government regulation. Period
Nuclear electrical power would not exist were it not for government intervention so we can't use that for a comparison. I guess that leaves coal, which is cheaper for energy production but that's without considering the cost of CO2 release, poisonous airborne particulates, mercury flavored food supplies and the resultant stupid children. You get none of that when you're downwind of a wind or solar plant. Probably won't have the President eulogizing any of those employees either.
QuoteQuoteQuote
At the moment there is absolutely no demand for carbon credits.
http://www2.goldmansachs.com/services/advising/environmental-markets/business-initiatives/trading-and-cap-markets.html
Just another way for the "big banking/money trading" companies to get rich/richer off the hard work of others.
James
True. And they'll probably find a way to screw us over again. My post was to counter the "absolutely no demand" assertion.
billvon 3,111
>Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
rushmc 23
Quote>Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
Your statement here is bullshit but
we can leave it at that
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Blamey 0
Quote
the ecology of the planet?
Take a look to see what happens to a poor little plant when it is exposed to high levels of this co2 pollutant the earth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2qVNK6zFgE
Talk about going green!
That's photosynthesis. Its expected.
Not sure if you put that there as a joke, it was a nice video but the quotes on you tube are kinda scary.
billvon 3,111
>You statement here is bullshit
============
The Clean Air Task Force, on behalf of the Clear the Air campaign, commissioned Abt Associates to quantify the health impacts of fine particle air pollution, commonly known as soot, from power plants, as well as the expected benefits (avoidable deaths, hospitalizations, etc.) of policies that would reduce fine particle pollution from power plants. The health effects analyzed include death, hospitalizations, emergency room visits, asthma attacks, and a variety of lesser respiratory symptoms.
This report summarizes the findings of the Abt Associates study, reviews the contribution of power plants to fine particle pollution, and discusses policies that will reduce power plant fine particle pollution and thus save thousands of lives. Key findings include:
* Fine particle pollution from U.S. power plants cuts short the lives of over 30,000 people each year.
* In more polluted areas, fine particle pollution can shave several years off its victims' lives.
* Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffer from asthma attacks, cardiac problems and upper and lower respiratory problems associated with fine particles from power plants.
* The elderly, children, and those with respiratory disease are most severely impacted by fine particle pollution from power plants.
* Metropolitan areas with large populations near coal-fired power plants feel their impacts most acutely - their attributable death rates are much higher than in areas with few or no coal-fired power plants.
* Power plants outstrip all other polluters as the largest source of sulfates - the major component of fine particle pollution - in the U.S.
* Approximately two-thirds (over 18,000) of the deaths due to fine particle pollution from power plants could be avoided by implementing policies that cut power plant sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide pollution 75 percent below 1997 emission levels.
Fine particle pollution is responsible for increased risk of death and shortened life spans. Abt Associates' findings are based on a body of well-accepted scientific work on the health effects of fine particle pollution. The discussion at pages 12-16 of the report contains an extensive review of the scientific studies used by Abt Associates linking fine particle pollution to death and other health damages.
===========================
Press Releases
2000 Releases
HSPH Report Quantifies Health Impact of Air Pollution From Two Massachusetts Power Plants
For immediate release: May 04, 2000
Boston, MA--Air pollution from two Massachusetts coal-fired power plants contributes to particulate matter, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and ozone exposure over a large region. Using a sophisticated model of how particulate matter and its precursors are dispersed in the atmosphere, Harvard School of Public Health scientists Jonathan Levy and John D. Spengler have calculated exposures to 32 million residents living in New England, eastern New York and New Jersey from these older plants.
Their report estimated that current emissions from the Salem Harbor and Brayton Point power plants can be linked to more than 43,000 asthma attacks and nearly 300,000 incidents of upper respiratory symptoms per year in the region. The study also estimated that 159 premature deaths per year could be attributed to this pollution.
The health risks are greatest for people living closer to the plants. Twenty percent of the total health impact occurs on 8 percent of the population that lives within 30 miles of the facilities.
=========================
Storing coal slurry
Coal impoundment failures have resulted in property damage, environmental contamination and, in one case, loss of life. They’ve made headlines about nine times since 1975.
. . .
Coal impoundments hold wastewater and impurities that result from coal washing and processing. A bulkhead or embankment is made of coarse coal refuse and acts as a dam. Behind it lies a pond of coal slurry. Sediment settles out of this turbid mixture, filling the pond, while wastewater is recycled back into the coal washing process. The sizes of the ponds and bulkheads vary, but pond basins are often hundreds of feet deep and hold millions of gallons of slurry. As of this year, 713 coal waste impoundments exist in the United States. Most are in West Virginia, Virginia and Kentucky.
The most infamous coal impoundment failure occurred in February of 1972. A bulkhead that held back millions of gallons of coal slurry broke, releasing a torrent of the refuse into Buffalo Creek Hollow in Logan County, W.V. One hundred and twenty-five people were killed, more than 1,000 were injured and about 4,000 were left homeless. Virtually all the homes within the hollow were destroyed.
=========================
============
The Clean Air Task Force, on behalf of the Clear the Air campaign, commissioned Abt Associates to quantify the health impacts of fine particle air pollution, commonly known as soot, from power plants, as well as the expected benefits (avoidable deaths, hospitalizations, etc.) of policies that would reduce fine particle pollution from power plants. The health effects analyzed include death, hospitalizations, emergency room visits, asthma attacks, and a variety of lesser respiratory symptoms.
This report summarizes the findings of the Abt Associates study, reviews the contribution of power plants to fine particle pollution, and discusses policies that will reduce power plant fine particle pollution and thus save thousands of lives. Key findings include:
* Fine particle pollution from U.S. power plants cuts short the lives of over 30,000 people each year.
* In more polluted areas, fine particle pollution can shave several years off its victims' lives.
* Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffer from asthma attacks, cardiac problems and upper and lower respiratory problems associated with fine particles from power plants.
* The elderly, children, and those with respiratory disease are most severely impacted by fine particle pollution from power plants.
* Metropolitan areas with large populations near coal-fired power plants feel their impacts most acutely - their attributable death rates are much higher than in areas with few or no coal-fired power plants.
* Power plants outstrip all other polluters as the largest source of sulfates - the major component of fine particle pollution - in the U.S.
* Approximately two-thirds (over 18,000) of the deaths due to fine particle pollution from power plants could be avoided by implementing policies that cut power plant sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide pollution 75 percent below 1997 emission levels.
Fine particle pollution is responsible for increased risk of death and shortened life spans. Abt Associates' findings are based on a body of well-accepted scientific work on the health effects of fine particle pollution. The discussion at pages 12-16 of the report contains an extensive review of the scientific studies used by Abt Associates linking fine particle pollution to death and other health damages.
===========================
Press Releases
2000 Releases
HSPH Report Quantifies Health Impact of Air Pollution From Two Massachusetts Power Plants
For immediate release: May 04, 2000
Boston, MA--Air pollution from two Massachusetts coal-fired power plants contributes to particulate matter, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and ozone exposure over a large region. Using a sophisticated model of how particulate matter and its precursors are dispersed in the atmosphere, Harvard School of Public Health scientists Jonathan Levy and John D. Spengler have calculated exposures to 32 million residents living in New England, eastern New York and New Jersey from these older plants.
Their report estimated that current emissions from the Salem Harbor and Brayton Point power plants can be linked to more than 43,000 asthma attacks and nearly 300,000 incidents of upper respiratory symptoms per year in the region. The study also estimated that 159 premature deaths per year could be attributed to this pollution.
The health risks are greatest for people living closer to the plants. Twenty percent of the total health impact occurs on 8 percent of the population that lives within 30 miles of the facilities.
=========================
Storing coal slurry
Coal impoundment failures have resulted in property damage, environmental contamination and, in one case, loss of life. They’ve made headlines about nine times since 1975.
. . .
Coal impoundments hold wastewater and impurities that result from coal washing and processing. A bulkhead or embankment is made of coarse coal refuse and acts as a dam. Behind it lies a pond of coal slurry. Sediment settles out of this turbid mixture, filling the pond, while wastewater is recycled back into the coal washing process. The sizes of the ponds and bulkheads vary, but pond basins are often hundreds of feet deep and hold millions of gallons of slurry. As of this year, 713 coal waste impoundments exist in the United States. Most are in West Virginia, Virginia and Kentucky.
The most infamous coal impoundment failure occurred in February of 1972. A bulkhead that held back millions of gallons of coal slurry broke, releasing a torrent of the refuse into Buffalo Creek Hollow in Logan County, W.V. One hundred and twenty-five people were killed, more than 1,000 were injured and about 4,000 were left homeless. Virtually all the homes within the hollow were destroyed.
=========================
kallend 2,147
QuoteQuote>Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
Your statement here is bullshit but
we can leave it at that
So the dead miners in W. Virginia are "bullshit"? Black lung disease is "bullshit"? You have a very selfish, unpleasant, typically Republican attitude.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rushmc 23
Quoteon behalf of the Clear the Air campaign,
Yep, another unbiased report
Kind if like your AGW support
Next
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuote>Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
Your statement here is bullshit but
we can leave it at that
So the dead miners in W. Virginia are "bullshit"? Black lung disease is "bullshit"? You have a very selfish, unpleasant, typically Republican attitude.
You really dont stay on topic much do you
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 2,147
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
Your statement here is bullshit but
we can leave it at that
So the dead miners in W. Virginia are "bullshit"? Black lung disease is "bullshit"? You have a very selfish, unpleasant, typically Republican attitude.
You really dont stay on topic much do you![[:/]](//www.dropzone.com/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png "[:/]")
Not my fault if you have a bad attitude to the suffering of others all in the name of making a profit for your industry.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 3,111
>Yep, another unbiased report
You must have not read the entire thing. I also included a Harvard School of Public Health report showing ~160 people a year dying from just two power plants in Massachusetts, and a listing of coal slurry pond disasters, including one that killed over 125 people.
Easy to argue against science when you don't understand it. Harder to argue with a corpse to convince him that coal isn't dangerous.
You must have not read the entire thing. I also included a Harvard School of Public Health report showing ~160 people a year dying from just two power plants in Massachusetts, and a listing of coal slurry pond disasters, including one that killed over 125 people.
Easy to argue against science when you don't understand it. Harder to argue with a corpse to convince him that coal isn't dangerous.
rushmc 23
http://www.netl.doe.gov/KeyIssues/future_fuel.html
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 2,147
Quote>Yep, another unbiased report
You must have not read the entire thing. .
Oh the humanity! Rushmc didn't read the post before he hit "Reply"
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Wind generation is not a money maker for utilities unles the market is
>distroted by government regulation.
And coal power is not profitable unless mining companies and power companies are free to destroy the livelihoods and lives of others. In other words, they get a free ride on the backs of others. I am happy to see that the playing field is being leveled a little bit.
Your statement here is bullshit but
we can leave it at that
So the dead miners in W. Virginia are "bullshit"? Black lung disease is "bullshit"? You have a very selfish, unpleasant, typically Republican attitude.
You really dont stay on topic much do you
Not my fault if you have a bad attitude to the suffering of others all in the name of making a profit for your industry.
Pushing words and dragging a thread of topic again I see
A disgusting tactic you use regularly
Want to discuss this? Start another thread and I will join
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Just another way for the "big banking/money trading" companies to get rich/richer off the hard work of others.
James
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